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**richsc** · 05-29-2003, 06:38 PM

Got this from Peter Raftos; and since the hoplite folks seem a bit homeless, I thought I'd post it here. Matt may take note! 
 
 
The Hoplite Association, A hoplite re-enactment group in the United Kingdom, excellent stuff! 
www.hoplites.co.uk 
www.hoplites.btinternet.co.uk 
 
Sydney Ancients--Hoplites and other ancient types in Sydney, Australia. 
[email protected] 
www.geocities.com/sydneyancients/ 
 
Cheers 
 
Peter Richard Campbell, Legio XX

05-30-2003, 12:32 PM

Odd there aren't more of these groups...I wonder why? Arms and Armor would be cheaper, that's for sure... Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Coh I 
 
"Nothing happens to any man, which he is not formed by nature to bear." 
 
- Marcus Aurelius 
 
- Number of posts: current +1248

JRSCline · 05-30-2003, 12:35 PM

They should be recruiting rugby players... 
 
Cheers 
Jenny

TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS · 05-30-2003, 02:17 PM

I know that the Centurion of Legio XXX U.T.V in Rome is making right now some full hoplite kits for a 2004 important project. 
 
Valete, 
 
Titus Sabatinus Aquilius

Daniel S Peterson · 05-30-2003, 03:21 PM

Because of the upcoming Athens Olympics, one or more 
Alexander the Great movies, and the Troy film, Deepeeka will considerably expand their Greek line soon. This will probably be the main topic of my next india trip. I just hope they get the bronze worked out by then, for all this gear just won't be right in brass. As I recently said on another thead, this is why the 'earlier' Greco-Roman equipment has not been further developed yet. 
 
It is one of my dreams to have a 20 man Hoplite group by next year and have a chance to serve as 'marines' on the reconstructed Trireme of the Greek Navy.......... but not until we have real bronze armor - brass is farb. 
Dan

05-30-2003, 07:49 PM

Dan, did they make any of their kit out of iron/steel? And what about the linen curass? Or was that a later development? 
 
Also, what type of sword was more popular, the falcata, or that double edged, leaf shaped one? Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Coh I 
 
"Nothing happens to any man, which he is not formed by nature to bear." 
 
- Marcus Aurelius 
 
- Number of posts: current +1248

***Praefectusclassis*** · 05-30-2003, 07:51 PM

Dan, that would be so cool! But I heard the Olympias is rotting away now and the plans to build a newer, better Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â´floating hypothesisÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´ arenÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´t really coming to anything. 
Maybe itÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´s a nice project for us. Anybody got a few spare millions lying about? Greets 
 
Jasper

Jeroen Pelgrom · 05-30-2003, 08:18 PM

*immediately checks his wallet* 
 
alas, no.

05-31-2003, 03:09 PM

Dan: 
The marine project sounds fascinating, but you'll never catch me on deep water in full armor. I won't even walk close to a swimming pool when I'm in my gear.

Daniel S Peterson · 06-01-2003, 05:00 PM

John, 
I know what what you mean. I was contemplating wearing my "Archduke Sigismund" type, full Gothic plate armor to the next Venice Carnival, but then I thought, with all of those canals, and all the drunken yahoos, it probably wouldn't be a good idea. 
 
I believe the only definately documented use of iron armor by the "Greeks" is the remarkable iron cuirass and helmet from the Vergina Tomb in Macedon which is attributed to Phillip, father of Alexander. This of couse, is a bit after the classic Hoplite period. Linen Cuirasses are definately right, and show up more often in art than any other body armor. There are a wide variety of body armors possible, some linen cuirasses were partially, or fully covered with scales, and there were lamellar cuirases. The Vergina cuirass gives the appearance of a linen cuirass, and perhaps such a piece wasn't as unique as first thought. 
 
Tib, I don't think the falcatta ever superceded the classic leaf shapped greek sword. There is such a wealth of black and red pottery that depicts Greek soldiers in great detail, and as it usually can be confidently dated, we probably have a truer picture of their kit than we have of most eras of ancient Rome. 
 
Dan

06-01-2003, 05:37 PM

Dan, 
John and I both live in New Mexico and belong to the IX Hispania. We are planning a march next to the Rio Grande River later this summer. If any of us fall in, there will be a lot of cleaning dust off our armor, and I hope no one gets hurt by the imapct of the fall. 
 
A question-- Given the Vergina armor is iron. There is a Roman copy of a Mosaic of Alexander charging into somebody or another wearing an armor that looks like an iron linothorax for the top half and scale for the bottom. For a mounted rider, a flexable scale midriff makes sense, with a rigid sholder defense. Is there any evidence to support this kind of a construction? The next elaboration would be wearing the sholder pieces of a segmentata with mail instead of the girth plates for Roman cavalry... like football pads... or do I need to sober up and dry out. 
 
Gaius Aquilius 
Who was thinking of making an Alexander armor as described above.

Daniel S Peterson · 06-01-2003, 06:25 PM

Gaius, 
there is an original Roman representation of just such an armor (mail shirt with segmentata type shoulders) worn by a 1st century AD cavalryman. There is a painting of it in Simkin's "Warriors of Rome", and I am wearing such an armor (right in the Roman forum!) in several photos in one of the Junkelmann cavalry books. It seems like a great idea, though probably not that widespread or we would see more sculptural evidence. 
 
The upper thorax of the armor worn by Alexander may indeed be a plate, but usually interpreted as a standard linen cuirass, many of which have scale around the belly, and commonly seen among infantry hoplites. However, in the Straubing horde and other Roman sites, large pectoral plates have been found, usually with Medusa type decorations, which seem to have been attached to a Greek type linen cuirass. Junkelmann had such an armor made, decorated in the fashion of Alexander's, in his book about Roman Cavalry sports armor. 
 
These pecotoral plates may only be a Roman invention in Hellenistic style, or as you suggest, what Alexander is actually wearing. I do not recall ever seeing any actual artifact like this in a Greek context though, save for the Vergina "full metal jacket". but it stands to reason that the upper chest is as equally deserving of metal armor as the belly. It may have been very common to have a hidden metal plate underneath the chest of many a linen cuiras, expecially those that already have a scale belly band. 
 
Hmmm, if the Krauts (or Bush Admin.), finally kick us out of Germany, I may be campaigning in New Mexico too, as I have a house in nearby El Paso, back from the days when I ran the 3d Armd Cavalry Museum there. Never thought I would be away for so long, but its hard to leave Europe, with Roman forts, Medieval castles and Napoleonic battlefields literally in your backyard. 
 
Oh, while traversing the Rio grande valley, and Jornada del Muerto, keep an eye out for Sibley's abandoned M1841 Mountain Howitzers. I believe at least one is still unaccounted for, and out there, somewhere. 
 
Dan

06-02-2003, 02:25 AM

Dan, 
 
*Oh, while traversing the Rio grande valley, and Jornada del Muerto, keep an eye out for Sibley's abandoned M1841 Mountain Howitzers. I believe at least one is still unaccounted for, and out there, somewhere. * 
 
When I was an Intelligence Research officer with the Dept.of Interior (BLM) I was onto Sibley's guns. I found the location of the gun and the abandoned supply train... north of Magdelena, also where the 9th Cavalry was abushed by Nana... not that there may be anything left... but I'll get with you on that. A tail to tell. Also a "Pisan" style armor west of Silver City. 
 
Gaius Aquilius 
Who has a Burgonet believed to belong to Pedro Alvarado of Acoma fame.

Daniel S Peterson · 06-02-2003, 03:49 PM

Gaius, 
Wow, I'd like to hear the story about the burgonet, and also the armor from the Silver City region. I have heard a lot of stories of 'conquistador' armor found in the southwest, but have remained pretty sceptical. I have a lot of late 15th century gear, and if I return to the Southwest will probably try to do a real authentic 'conquistador' group and conduct hardcore expeditons into the desert in search of lost cities of gold and such. I'll see if Rich will post an image of some of the gear here. 
 
But back to Hoplites, did any of you Greekophiles copy or get a video of that recent Discovery Channel '300 Spartans' show? I don't recall the actual name of it. A lot of my gear was used in that, and I was Leonidas's 'right hand man' in his death scene, and also the last Spartan to die on the hill. I never got to see it and lost contact with the makers. This was the one filmed in Malta with a lot of CGI effects to make it look like a lot more men. There ought to be some great scenes, like Persepolis, the Persian army crossing the Hellespont, and the battle itself. 
 
Dan

06-02-2003, 05:05 PM

Dan, how authentic is that greek sword that Deepeeka makes? 
 
Also, will they be making a different version of that muscle armor? Theirs is sized way too big, and looks very different from the ones in Connolly's "G & R at W". Is it a copy off an original? 
 
What about an Aspis? I know Deepeeka makes a greek shield, but I don't know if it is up to specs. 
 
Their linothorax...doesn't it need work? 
 
If there is sufficient interest, will deepeeka then expand their greek line of equipment? Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Coh I 
 
"Nothing happens to any man, which he is not formed by nature to bear." 
 
- Marcus Aurelius 
 
- Number of posts: current +1248

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