Roman Marching/Temporary Camps

[Nerva]

Excellent :!:

I have to agree with you on a number of things Duncan. Camps of the size I'm talking about would have been of little use militarily. At best they could only have accommodated 2 century's or so and were most likely built to accommodate troops during the construction of the wall. Ultimately we intend to convert our temporary camp into a permanent fortlet like Barburgh Mill.

Next week-end we will be cutting and saving the turf sods. I should probably say we'll be starting to save the turf sods as it will take 8 of us a bit more than a week-end to cut out 1,200 square metres of turf hock: Any information on this camp would be much appreciated.

One interesting though, if you use Google earth and do a scan along the wall it's amazing how many forts/camps you can find

[Nerva]

Martin I was just thinking that when you come up here to the wall area, after a visit maybe to Chesters Fort where I used to work we could wander west to Limestone Corner for here about a hundred yards below Hadrians' Wall there is a camp of about 50 yrds square.
I have an idea about this one that fits in with a paper that I must finish one day about Limestone corner, it all has to do with the reason that the Romans never dug around 200yrds or so of the ditch north of the Wall. It's yet another answer to add to the many that have been put forward regarding this particular point on Hadrians' Wall.
This camp is interesting for there is a Roman road that runs away from it South to a fort at Newbrough on the Stanegate, and this camp has a connection to this fort but not only that the road went on over the river Tyne to another fort on the south side of the river.
Then the road realy gets interesting for when it leaves this fort it goes straight to Ebchester Roman Fort in County Durham and joins the Dere Street, however on it's way it goes right thro' Hexham Abbey as does Raymond Selkirk's 255 frontier line as it goes west to the Irish Sea. ( Martin I do think that you are going to enjoy this particular trip to Hadrians' Wall this time)

Salve Brian!

I must say I'm really looking forward to this visit :!: I've spoken with Tom Feeley and he's as excited as I am. The camp you mention sounds just like just what I'm looking for. From scanning the wall on Google earth I have found a great many Roman camps. Some of these are very large but many more are small and seemingly insignificant. We can never know the function of these smaller camps for sure. Some may have been as Duncan has suggested 'practice' camps, but I think the Romans built little without a purpose.

In any case I'm very excited at the thought of exploring new camps and taking full advantage of your experienced and unique knowledge of the wall area.

Thanks again Brian

Martin

[Nerva]

Salvete Omnes!

Here are the two basic options I'm looking at. The first is a camp showing 4 different gate types...

http://www.romansireland.ie/romanarmy/Camp%20Design.jpg

The second is a simple design with 4 Titulum

http://www.romansireland.ie/romanarmy/C ... gn%202.jpg

Any comments greatly appreciated

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Our 'camp, has one gate, and the tiulum.....

I would go for the option of the 4 different gates, as this will inform the visitor of the variety available, instead of having to explain it to them.
Easier to explain the variation, than describe something they cannot see.

I envy you the attempt at accuracy, Nerva.

It is not the easiest thing to do when the majority are willing to make do with whatever!!

Good luck, and happy digging!! Get Ceant swinging thal dolabra!!

[mcbishop]

I don't know why RCAHME don't put this stuff online, like their counterparts in Scotland and Wales.

RCHME (only Wales and Scotland had the 'A' and the 'E' was even dropped in later years) don't exist any more, as they have been absorbed into English Heritage (thereby getting around the problem of a Royal Commission - which is by definition usually finite - having no end in sight!) and most of the information about scheduled monuments is available through the PastScape website - here's Chapel Rigg, for instance (they have recently 'improved' the search interface but it doesn't seem much of an improvement on the old one, if anything it's worse). All of the temporary camps around Hadrian's Wall are included in Per Lineam Valli but you have to zoom in quite close to see 'em (to avoid information overload at high altitudes), although they are individually accessible from the sidebar, including of course Chapel Rigg (which comes out at about 96m by 80m measured over the ramparts with the GE ruler).

Mike Bishop

[D B Campbell]

RCHME don't exist any more, as they have been absorbed into English Heritage ...

:oops: Minor mental abberation on my part, Mike.

... most of the information about scheduled monuments is available through the PastScape website - here's Chapel Rigg, for instance (they have recently 'improved' the search interface but it doesn't seem much of an improvement on the old one, if anything it's worse).

Thanks, Mike. It's better than nothing. Although the beauty of Canmore (and, to a lesser extent, Coflein) is that they've digitised a barrow-load of APs and made them available to the public, which means that we can actually see cropmark sites all year round. If Pastscape are relying on Google Earth for all their sites (as in the case of Chapel Rigg), there'll be acres of empty fields!

[D B Campbell]

Here are the two basic options I'm looking at ...

So you were just teasing me when you said you wanted to recreate an actual Roman camp. You're just going to make one up after all!

Nice ideas though, Martin. With the right signposting, number 1 could be very educational.

[jvrjenivs]

I really like the one with the 4 different gates, very useful for education! There is no better way to explain then to really show what you're talking about.

[Nerva]

Here are the two basic options I'm looking at ...

So you were just teasing me when you said you wanted to recreate an actual Roman camp. You're just going to make one up after all!

Hi Duncan

I'm totally torn over this one. I would ideally like to re-construct an actual camp. I'll be visiting a number of camps along Hadrians wall with Brian Stobbs and Tom Feeley the week-end after next. Hopefully I'll find an example that we can recreate. Failing this though we will proceed with one of the examples indicated.

In any case, I'll be posting up a camp construction "Blogg". I still need a great deal of indormation on wall construction, sod use and palasade construction so your help would be greatly appreciated.

[Nerva]

Salve Byron!

How are you keeping these days? I hope you and the rest of the lads (and lassie's) of the glorious XIIIth are keeping well. Once we get this finished we must have you lads over for the christening :!:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Salve Byron!

How are you keeping these days? I hope you and the rest of the lads (and lassie's) of the glorious XIIIth are keeping well. Once we get this finished we must have you lads over for the christening :!:

Well, us'uns in the XIIIIth are doing fine mate! That would be a good event , in a marching camp to boot!! Are you going to be at Corbridge?

[Nerva]

Well, us'uns in the XIIIIth are doing fine mate! That would be a good event , in a marching camp to boot!! Are you going to be at Corbridge?

Sorry mate, but that's the week-end well be moving earth in Slane. Say hello to the lads for us though :wink:

[PhilusEstilius]

Martin. After seeing your pics' of the two camps I think that I am inclined to go along with the idea ( which I think will be the more popular vote ) of the differing gate system from the educational point of view.
Then where you say earlier that anything more than 50 X 50 would tend to swamp you in size, I had thought of an idea to use up some of that space. I think it may be correct to say that marching camps could possibly have been similar to more permanent forts in that they would both have had an intervallum road, i e a street that ran all round the inside of the ramparts,
Then also the other streets could shed maybe a bit more space such as the Via Praetoria, and the Via Decumana, however I don't know how the cross street would be named in a marching camp for it is difficult to say if it was named the Via principalis for at the center of such a camp would have been the commanders tent.
With these streets made at 16 to 20 feet wide it might help to push the soldiers tents a bit more into the center and so fill things out a bit, such as your two drawings if the tents were pushed in a bit to allow for the intervallum road then the gaps for the cross streets if you can see my point.

[Nerva]

Martin. After seeing your pics' of the two camps I think that I am inclined to go along with the idea ( which I think will be the more popular vote ) of the differing gate system from the educational point of view.
Then where you say earlier that anything more than 50 X 50 would tend to swamp you in size, I had thought of an idea to use up some of that space. I think it may be correct to say that marching camps could possibly have been similar to more permanent forts in that they would both have had an intervallum road, i e a street that ran all round the inside of the ramparts,
Then also the other streets could shed maybe a bit more space such as the Via Praetoria, and the Via Decumana, however I don't know how the cross street would be named in a marching camp for it is difficult to say if it was named the Via principalis for at the center of such a camp would have been the commanders tent.
With these streets made at 16 to 20 feet wide it might help to push the soldiers tents a bit more into the center and so fill things out a bit, such as your two drawings if the tents were pushed in a bit to allow for the intervallum road then the gaps for the cross streets if you can see my point.

Hi Brian

Some excellent idea's there. I should say that while we are now constructing a temporary camp, it is our intention to develop the camp into something resembling a more permanent 'fortlet' so what your proposing fits in well with our plans. Now I need to find out more about rampart construction. In particular how the turf sods were used. There are three basic turf wall constructions that I'm aware of.

The first is simply an inverted V shaped earthen mound with the sods placed linearly along its sides. The second is again an inverted V shaped earthen mound but this time with the sods placed like steps, a fart more stable construction. Finally there is simple a wall made of turf sods stacked on top of and against each other.

Then we need to make the palisade stakes. The design of the stake seems to be straightforward, but how were they employed both on top of the ramparts, within the gates and as forward defences?

Lot's of work to be done.

[M. Demetrius]

You probably already have, but just in case, take a look at what was built/is being built at Lafe in Arkansas, USA. www.ad43.org shows a slightly upscale venture (all built with donations and volunteer labor). I think the size is around 50m square, with ditch and berm, topped with wooden plank wall, towers at the corners, and gatehouses at either end. They've also built one bunkhouse so far (8 bunks per room, 4 rooms total, which is advertised as "cool in the winter, warm in the summer" ) and are planning some other buildings as time and money permit.

Anyway, just a thought. They know that a fort should have 4 gates, but for now, they're happy with two. It's an impressive thing to be inside of. Might spawn an idea or two.