Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Did Romans wear Chitons in the Eastern provinces ?
#1
Avete,

As I am working on an Eastern Auxiliary impression I was thinking about what sort of tunics Roman legionaries stationed in the East would have worn. Since their clothing was purchased from local manufacturers I thought perhaps the legionaires would only have Greek style tunics available to them (unless they sent for clothing from their homes). But I'm largely ignorant of Greek clothing fashions during Roman rule. Maybe the Greeks adopted Roman style tunics for all I know.

Thanks in advance for any helpful information Smile

~Theo
Jaime
Reply
#2
It's really hard to find solid information on Greek clothing from the first century BC/AD. Everything is from the Classical and Hellenistic eras! I would not be at all surprised to find that Greek clothing had changed a lot over time, especially under the Roman influence that had been spreading through the Mediterranean since the 2nd century BC. Of course, whatever a Greek man wears is probably still *called* a chiton, but it might not look all that much different from a Roman tunica.

I'd love to know more!

Khaire,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
Reply
#3
Hi Theo

Quote:As I am working on an Eastern Auxiliary impression I was thinking about what sort of tunics Roman legionaries stationed in the East would have worn. Since their clothing was purchased from local manufacturers I thought perhaps the legionaires would only have Greek style tunics available to them (unless they sent for clothing from their homes). But I'm largely ignorant of Greek clothing fashions during Roman rule. Maybe the Greeks adopted Roman style tunics for all I know.

The documents and surviving textiles from Egypt and Israel seem to suggest the tunics are the basic Roman 'type'. If you copied any of the adult size Nahal Hever tunics you would probably not be too far wrong.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
Reply
#4
Quote:It's really hard to find solid information on Greek clothing from the first century BC/AD. Everything is from the Classical and Hellenistic eras! I would not be at all surprised to find that Greek clothing had changed a lot over time, especially under the Roman influence that had been spreading through the Mediterranean since the 2nd century BC.

FWIW, Suetonius mentions that "Tiberius [during his exile on Rhodes] discontinued his ususal exercise on horseback and on foot in the parade ground; wore a Greek cloak and slippers instead of Roman dress;" (Suetonius, Tiberius, 13). So, at least some articles of clothing seem to have remained unchanged. I thought the Greeks under Roman rule remained very conservative in both dress and customs, resisting Roman influence and, in some cases, citizenship.

Dio, Book 62, 17...Nero was about to sing with zither accompaniment and could not endure the idea of being seen by Corbulo while he wore the long ungirded tunic.

Suetonius, Nero, 25 : "...[Nero] wore a Greek mantle spangled with gold stars over a purple robe."

And here's an interesting excerpt from a book on Roman Costumes focusing on Cicero's attitude to Romans wearing Greek and foreign dress (see pages 135-136) : http://books.google.com/books?id=GxGPLj ... wore+greek

It seems wearing Greek garb was only outrageous if a magistrate wore it during official functions.

I think Marcus Antonus also wore Greek attire on occassion, perhaps at Athens after his victory at Phillipi.

All these excerpts tell us is that there was at least some distinction between Greek and Roman clothing during the 1st centuries BC / AD but they give no details with the possible exception of Dio. The book on Roman costumes may be worth buying : http://www.amazon.com/World-Costume-Wis ... 638&sr=1-1

Quote:Of course, whatever a Greek man wears is probably still *called* a chiton, but it might not look all that much different from a Roman tunica.
Very good point. I wonder, though, if Greek Chitons tended to be more form-fitting.


Hi Graham,
Quote:The documents and surviving textiles from Egypt and Israel seem to suggest the tunics are the basic Roman 'type'. If you copied any of the adult size Nahal Hever tunics you would probably not be too far wrong.
Thank you, Graham. My new tunic will look just like it except it will be 100% wool, with no seems at the shoulders. I'm going to cut the tunic vertically into three pieces and insert clavii. This will make the clavii more integral with the tunic instead of simply superimposing them onto it. I hope the appearance looks more authentic.

Vale,

~Theo
Jaime
Reply
#5
Quote:Very good point. I wonder, though, if Greek Chitons tended to be more form-fitting.

Not if they're anything like those from 500 BC! Very baggy and shapeless:

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/hoprest.jpg

However, if Persian influence had crept in, they could indeed have become less baggy, maybe even with sleeves.

It is interesting that there was still a discernable difference in Greek and Roman clothing. For a cloak, it could be more a matter of trim or decoration. For instance, Jewish cloaks seem to have generally had the notched corner strips. The Classical Greek chlamys often had a narrow stripe across each end, and (apparently) little bronze weights at the lower corners. It's possible that the chiton still had its arm openings at the top, rather than at the sides like the Roman tunica.

Quote:My new tunic will look just like it except it will be 100% wool, with no seems at the shoulders. I'm going to cut the tunic vertically into three pieces and insert clavii. This will make the clavii more integral with the tunic instead of simply superimposing them onto it. I hope the appearance looks more authentic.

Yeah, one of my legionaries made a tunic with clavi that way, once, in fact I think I did the sewing! Worked pretty well, at least it looked a little better than simply sewing clavi on the surface. Just remember to iron the seams very well on the inside, to make everything lie as flat as possible.

Good luck!

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
Reply
#6
Hi Theo

Quote:My new tunic will look just like it except it will be 100% wool, with no seems at the shoulders. I'm going to cut the tunic vertically into three pieces and insert clavii. This will make the clavii more integral with the tunic instead of simply superimposing them onto it. I hope the appearance looks more authentic.

Yes , it would be nice to see that very dark red one reconstructed with the very dark purple almost black clavi!

The Roman military documents from Egypt are written in Greek so the basic answer to your initial question is.... yes, as Matthew has already pointed out.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
Reply
#7
Quote:For a cloak, it could be more a matter of trim or decoration. For instance, Jewish cloaks seem to have generally had the notched corner strips.

Ah, the so-called Gamma emblems. Yeah, I'll have those on my white, wool sagum. I think they were popular throughout the East. (Graham Sumner shows a tribune commander of an auxiliary cohort wearing one on his cloak.)

Quote:Worked pretty well, at least it looked a little better than simply sewing clavi on the surface. Just remember to iron the seams very well on the inside, to make everything lie as flat as possible.
Thanks ! I'll remember that. BTW, I only now learned how crucial it is to have the selvedged hem intact on the bottom. So, my tunic will instead be two halves sewen at the shoulders.

Quote:Yes , it would be nice to see that very dark red one reconstructed with the very dark purple almost black clavi!
Hmm...I was going to dye the clavii black to go onto my red tunic. But I happen to have purple RIT dye as well. I think I'll dye the clavii purple first, then darken them with the black after they've finished drying. Smile
(Maybe I'll dye my 'Gamma' emblems the same color for my white sagum.)

Quote:The Roman military documents from Egypt are written in Greek so the basic answer to your initial question is.... yes, as Matthew has already pointed out.
Thank you, Graham, for your help.

~Theo
Jaime
Reply
#8
Matt's right about the pressing of seams. My opinion is that you should turn the clavi seams away from the clavus, to help it lie flat. Turning them in might make it "hump" up.

A while back, I started going one step further than just pressing, after more than one tunic began to unweave itself in the washing machine. I really HATE to repair hand stitching, so I'm learning to take the extra time get it right the first time, and make the repairs less frequent. "A stitch in time saves nine."

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd29 ... lnotes.jpg

Here's a picture of a linen tunic that shows one kind of seam treatment that works well for me, even in the washing machine. After ten washings of this linen tunic, no fraying is evident. This detail shows an inside shoulder seam, an outside view of the same seam and a hem (which was folded under, to conceal the cut edge of the cloth. I used the same stitching on the side seam as for the shoulder seam. It takes a little longer, well, ok, quite a bit longer, but it makes a much better garment.

However, since I sewed it by unravelling thread from the cloth, it's a little hard to see the stitches (which, naturally, was the idea!) But maybe it will be self-explanatory. I captured the cut edges of the cloth with a whipstitch, and made a small topstitch through the cloth. It looks almost invisible. The stitches are about 3/16 of an inch long.

Test your dyed material for fading before you sew it on white wool. It would be sad if the color bled into the white, wouldn't it?

Be sure to show us some pictures of your tunic. I'll bet it's going to be a very nice one!
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply
#9
Ah, I think I understand now. I was going to cut the hems very short like in the top photo. But that would make the clavii pop out, you said. So, you and Matt are saying to leave some extra material to iron out so that the hems point away from each other like in the bottom picture ?
[attachment=0:1zkdmfhn]<!-- ia0 Short hems.GIF<!-- ia0 [/attachment:1zkdmfhn]
[attachment=1:1zkdmfhn]<!-- ia1 Clavii.GIF<!-- ia1 [/attachment:1zkdmfhn]
Quote:Test your dyed material for fading before you sew it on white wool. It would be sad if the color bled into the white, wouldn't it?
Good advice, thanks ! BTW, is RIT dye safe to use on 100% wool ? The label says "not recommended" for fabrics washable only in cold water.

Quote:Be sure to show us some pictures of your tunic. I'll bet it's going to be a very nice one!
I hope so too. And I'll post pics if it turns out well. Smile

~Theo
Jaime
Reply
#10
That's exactly right for the "seams facing away" from the clavus. You might need to tack them down with a row of stitching, to make them stay where you want them. Did the photo do you any good?

I dye with RIT on wool, and the only thing to worry about is fading on something else washed with it....Don't wash your red and white woolens together, or you'll end up with red and pink.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply
#11
Quote:That's exactly right for the "seams facing away" from the clavus. You might need to tack them down with a row of stitching, to make them stay where you want them. Did the photo do you any good?
Cool. I'll give it a go. Yes, your photo helps. I never would have seen the stitch had you not pointed it out. Very subtle. Impressive job !

Quote:I dye with RIT on wool, and the only thing to worry about is fading on something else washed with it....
I see. But I'm worried about temperature. I thought hot water ruins wool. The RIT instructions say to use 'hottest' water possible.

~Theo
Jaime
Reply
#12
Hot water makes the fibers in wool coil up more tightly, which makes the fabric thicker (*fuller*) and makes it lose dimension in length and width. If you want nice, thin tunic material, you ought to just buy the already dyed color you like, and dry clean it, or rinse it in mild soap and cold water.

If you don't use hot water for RIT, it won't set, and will fade more. If you do use hot water, the fabric will "shrink".

If it were my tunic, I wouldn't make the clavi from fabric I'd dyed. It is guaranteed to do something, and most likely something you won't like. I pretty much always go ahead with hot water before I sew it up. It's a compromise I feel comfortable with. But the fabric will get thicker, no doubt about that.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply
#13
Here it is. It measures 45 inches wide by 40 inches long, the same as the Nahal Hever tunic. I chose black clavii since it matches the tunic fragment from Engedi.

[Image: Clavii_fullview.jpg]

The material is 100% wool. I think the clavii blend in better than if they were simply superimposed.

[Image: Clavii_front.jpg]

As Matthew said, it can be difficult to match the clavii from both the front and back pieces.

[Image: Clavii_shoulder.jpg]

Finally, here are the seems. I haven't done any stitching yet because I'm considering just gluing them down. Has anyone here tried that option ?

[Image: Clavii_reverse.jpg]

~Theo
Jaime
Reply
#14
Oh, excellent! Very nice work. I wouldn't worry about the seam edges inside, they shouldn't go anywhere. Gluing will create a stiff line that will definitely show. If it were linen and you wanted to be able to machine-wash it, it would be best to whip-stitch all the cut edges. But for wool the harshest cleaning you'll do is to gently squish it into a tub of cool water with some soap, let it sit for a while, then rinse and let it dry. No heat, no agitation.

You'll probably want to whip stitch or blanket stitch along the neck opening, though, to keep it from fraying.

Happy tunic!

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
Reply
#15
Thanks, Matthew !

I'll be sure to stitch the neck and arm hems too. Yeah, good point about using glue for the inner seems. I'll leave them alone.

I've sifted through some more of the literary evidence for Greek style tunics, all from the Historia Augusta [HA]. The evidence is weak but it does mention that after Commodus' assasination some of his belongings were sold off by Pertinax. They included "long sleeved tunics in Dalmatian style, and fringed military cloaks, and purple cloaks, Greek style, for use in camp." (HA, Pertinax 8.10] I'm unclear as to what constitutes Dalmatian style tunics but the last item is interesting - a 'Greek style' cloak for use in the camp. Does that mean Greek cloaks were worn by officers or even common soldiers ?

The HA also mentions Marcus Aurelius and Septimius Severus wearing Greek cloaks at some point in their lives. [HA, Marcus Antoninus, 2.4. and Severus, 1.5]

According to Anthony Birley, the Emperor Elagabalus wore an exotic, silk chiton. He didn't cite a source for his use of that word though. But I did find a relief dated to the 3rd century A.D. which seems to depict a Greek style tunic :
[Image: Chiton.jpg]

~Theo
Jaime
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Segmentata in the Eastern provinces Nathan Ross 17 7,840 03-07-2016, 11:56 PM
Last Post: Caratacus
  Did Romans wear Corinthian style helmets too? AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs 37 10,840 02-06-2011, 12:48 PM
Last Post: Dany Boy

Forum Jump: