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phalanx depth
#1
I seem to recall reading someplace a table of known battles and the depths attributed to the combatants. Anyone seen something like this?
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#2
I think I have. There is probably one in Pritchett.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#3
I would be exceptionally greatful to anyone who scanned such a list for me :mrgreen:
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#4
It would be my pleasure Paul. Sean is indeed on the right track; the pioneering William K. Pritchett, in Part 1 of his voluminous The Greek State at War (Part 1, Ch. 11, Pgs. 135-137), provides a table of the battles which contain an ancient literary source for one or both of the army's file depth. Luckily, I copied the few pages from the book (the great work is not easy to find; you may need to go to a major university's reference section, etc.; I was in awe of the available material atop the stacks at Columbia University's Butler Library here in NYC), and put it in a word processor - for just such an occasion :lol: !

I don't have time for any discourse right now (to my frustration), but will add the trivia that, reputedly, the earliest surviving literary reference describing Greek battle formations drawn up in a conventional rank and file order can be dated to 426 B.C. (of course the dispositions existed earlier), from a fragment of Aristophanes; the context didn't survive, but considering the source, it may have been written in jest. But it implies a familiarity with something regarding command and battle deployment of the Archaic and Classical Age.

Aristophanes, Babylonians, Fragment 72,

"...??????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???????..."

- "...stand in rows all of you, to form three ranks of shields..."

Moreover, the earliest appearance in historiography of peltastai (?????????), distinct from psiloi (?????), is in Thucydides' account of the Battle of Delium (Delion), whom he calls 'targeteers', or 'targe bearers' (Book 4.93.3); or rather, anachronistic Old English (targe), Old Franconian (targa) and Proto-Germanic (targo) linguistics used in the translations, all denoting a shield in a general sense.

Anyway, here you go, Paul. Hope this helps. I have lain the data out with the date of occurrence, the nationally led army (not confined to one nationality, of course), the ancient source with its url link, and the filed depth. Remember, tactical and exigent circumstances, superfluous to state, apply.

TABLE 4: SPECIFIC FIGURES FOR HISTORICAL BATTLES, MANEUVERS, ETC.

471 B.C. - Spartans - Dipaea - Isocrates, Archidamus, Speech 99 - 1 file (probably rhetorical hyperbole; cf. Pritchett, Pg 137)

424 B.C. - Thebans - Delium - Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Book 4.93 - 25 deep

424 B.C. - Athenians - Delium - Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Book 4.94 - 8 deep

418 B.C. - Spartans - Mantinea - Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Book 5.68 - 8 files (‘on an average it was 8 deep’)

415 B.C. - Syracusans - Syracuse - Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Book 6.67 - 16 deep

415 B.C. - Athenians - Syracuse - Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Book 6.67 - 8 deep

408 - Spartans - Athens - Diodorus, Bibliotheca Historica, Book 13.72.5-6 - 4 deep

403 B.C. - Athenians - Piraeus - Xenophon, Hellenica, Book 2.4.11 - 50+ deep

403 B.C. - Athenians - Piraeus - Xenophon, Hellenica, Book 2.4.12 - 10- deep

403 B.C. - Athenians - Piraeus - Xenophon, Hellenica, Book 2.4.34 - 8 deep

402 B.C. - Spartans - Thrace (near the Hellespont, west of Byzantium) - Polyaenus, Strategica, Book 2.2.9 - 8 deep

401 B.C. - The '10,000' (known as such, with apologetic tendencies, in the Greek polemical tradition; actually, the number of the epoch-making rearguard was some 13,000+) - Tyriaeum - Xenophon, Anabasis, Book 1.2.15 - 4 deep

400 B.C. - The '10,000' - Byzantium - Xenophon, Anabasis, Book 7.1.23 - 8 deep

397 B.C. - Spartans et al. - Maeander River - Xenophon, Hellenica, Book 3.2.16 - 8 deep

394 B.C. - Athenians et al. - Nemea River - Xenophon, Hellenica, Book 4.2.18 - 16 deep

394 B.C. - Spartans - Thebes - Polyaenus, Strategica, Book 2.1.24 (N.A. online; this event may be apocryphal) - 2 deep

373 - Spartans - Corcyra - Xenophon, Hellenica, Book 6.2.21 - 8 deep

371 B.C. - Spartans - Leuctra - Xenophon, Hellenica, Book 6.4.12 - 12- deep

371 B.C. - Thebans - Leuctra - Xenophon, Hellenica, Book 6.4.12 - 50+ deep

370 B.C. - Spartans - Mantinea - Xenophon, Hellenica, Book 6.5.18-19 - 18/20 > 9/10 deep

335 B.C. - Macedonians - Pelium - Arrian, Anabasis Alexandri, Book 1.6.1 - 120 deep

333 B.C. - Macedonians - Issus - Polybius, The Histories, Book 12.19.6 - 16 > 32 > 16 > 8 deep

323 B.C. - Macedonians, Persians, Cossaeans, and Tapurians et al. - Babylon - Arrian, Anabasis Alexandri, Book 7.23.3 (apocryphal?)- 16 deep (4 Macedonian, 12 Asiatic)

276 B.C. - Galatians - N.A. - Lucian, Zeuxis or Antiochus, Ch. 8 (verisimilitude of Lucian, anyone?) - 24 deep

197 B.C. - Macedonians - Cynoscephalae - Polybius, The Histories, Book 18.24, 30 - 16 > 32 deep (perhaps 8 > 16; that they ‘doubled their depth’ is all that is clear)

190 B.C. - Seleucids - Magnesia - Livy, Ab Urbe Condita[/I], Book 37.40.1-2, and [b]Appian, Roman History, Syrian Wars, Ch. 32 - 32 deep

TABLE 5: GENERALITIES FOR HISTORICAL BATTLES, MANEUVERS, ETC.

490 B.C. - Athenians - Marathon - Herodotus, The Histories, Book 6.111.3 - "…On this occasion however, when the Athenians were being drawn up at Marathon something of this kind was done - their army being made equal in length of front to that of the Medes, came to be drawn up in the middle with a depth of but a few ranks, and here their army was weakest, while each wing was strengthened with numbers…"

479 B.C. - Persians - Plataea - Herodotus, The Histories, Book 9.31.1-2 - "…against the Lacedemonians he [Mardonius] stationed the Persians; and since the Persians were much superior in numbers, they were arrayed in deeper ranks than those, and notwithstanding this they extended in front of the Tegeans also…" (the Persian led army wasn't that 'much superior' in numbers; almost certainly, a reflection of Greek polemics again)

424 B.C. - Theban allies - Delium - Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Book 4.93 - "…The Boeotians placed a detachment to deal with these [300 Athenian horse left behind to to guard Delium in case of attack, and to watch for a chance to fall upon the Boeotians during the battle], and when everything was arranged to their satisfaction appeared over the hill, and halted in the order which they had determined on…"

413 B.C. - Syracusan allies - Syracuse - Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Book 7.69.1 - "…When Gylippus and the other Syracusan generals had, like Nicias, encouraged their troops, perceiving the Athenians to be manning their ships, they presently did the same…"

403 B.C. - Spartans et al. - Piraeus - Xenophon, Hellenica, Book 2.4.34 - "…Pausanias, being hard pressed and retreating about four or five stadia to a hill, sent orders to the Lacedaemonians and to the allies to join him. There he formed an extremely deep phalanx and led the charge against the Athenians…"

394 B.C. - Boeotians - Nemea River - Xenophon, Hellenica, Book 4.2.18 - "…disregarding the [Athenian] 16-rank formation, they [the Boeotians] made their phalanx exceedingly deep, and, besides, they also veered to the right in leading the advance, in order to outflank the enemy with their wing…"

273 B.C. - Spartans - Edessa - Polyaenus, Strategica, Book 2.29.2 - "At the siege of Edessa, when a breach was made in the walls, the spear-men, whose spears [sarissai] were 16 cubits long*, sallied out against the assailants. Cleonymus deepened his phalanx, and ordered the front line not to use their weapons, but with both hands to seize the enemy's spears, and hold them fast..."

*This is important additional trivia, in regards to Polybius' description of the sarissa (The Histories, Book 18.29.2), supplemented by Aelian (On Tactical Arrays of the Greeks, Book 14.2); Polybius tells us the original length was 24 ft. (16 cubits), and by his time (early 2nd century B.C., more precisely) the vaunted pole weapon was 21 ft. (14 cubits - being "adapted to actual need"). Theophrastus, the great philosopher (a Peripatetic polymath of antiquity) working at the time of Philip II and Alexander III (the Great), tells us the 'longest' sarissa was 18 ft. (Enquiry into Plants, Book 3.12.2). In addition (emendations, lack of timeframe, etc. must be taken into account), Arrian describes the sarissa as being 16ft. (Tactica, Book 12.7), and Asclepiodotus says it was not more than 18 ft. but not less than 15 ft. (Tactica, Book 5.1). It should be considered that some of the discrepancies could be very well be reflective of academic differences, not solely material; a 'cubit' (generally denoting 1.5 ft.) may have been slightly different in length to some of the authors (food for thought).

In the Hellenica (Book 7.2.6), Xenophon, in describing a night ambush on Phlius in 369 B.C., mentions the guards of Phlius organized in 'squads of 5'; Pritchett feels it is reasonable to suppose these were files of 5 men.

Pritchett's Table 6 merely itemizes Asclepiodotus and Arrian-Aelian as both giving examples of a common depth of 16 deep (the former’s Tactica at Book 6.2, the latter at 15.2); moreover, we are told of deliberations concerning phalangial depth in Xenophon’s Anabasis (Book 4.8.11), in the Hellenica (Book 4.2.13), and in the Cyropaedia (Book 6.3.22, 23).

TABLE 7: SPECIFIC FIGURES FOR FICTITIOUS BATTLES, MANEUVERS, ETC.

Date unknown - Persians - Media - Xenophon, Cyropaedia, Book 2.4.2 - 100 deep, 100 abreast

c. 546 B.C. - Ionians et al. - Sardis - Xenophon, Cyropaedia, Book 6.3.19 - 30 deep (foot and horse)

c. 546 B.C. - Persians - Sardis - Xenophon, Cyropaedia, Book 6.3.21 - 2 deep (separate platoons including chariots)

c. 546 B.C. - Egyptians - Xenophon, Cyropaedia, Book 6.3.22-23 - 100 deep (here in Xenophon, interestingly, Cyrus mentions 'hoplites' drawn up as he sees fit)

426 B.C. - Athenians et al ? - Aristophanes, Babylonians, Fragment 72 - 3 deep

411 B.C. - Athenians - Aristophanes, Lysistrata, Line 282, spoken by Leader of Chorus of Old Men - 17 deep

Pritchett's Table 8 has but one entry, as a generality for a fictitious battle: it is set in 539 B.C. by Xenophon, when, Cyropaedia, Book 7.5.1-2,

"…Cyrus appeared before Babylon he stationed his whole force about the city and then rode around it himself in company with his friends and the staff-officers of the allies; but when he had taken a survey of the walls, he prepared to draw off his army from the city. But a deserter came out and told him that they were going to attack him as soon as he began to draw his army off. 'For,' the man went on, 'your lines looked weak to those who observed them from the walls.' And it was no wonder that they appeared so; for, encompassing walls of such extent, the lines necessarily had but little depth..."

TABLE 9: CAVALRY AND ????? (Psiloi; light troops, such as skirmishers, missile troops etc.)

c. 546 B.C. - Ionian cavalry - Sardis - Xenophon, Cyropaedia, Book 6.3.19 - 30 deep, horse and foot

396 B.C. - Spartan cavalry - Dascyleium - Xenophon, Hellenica, Book 3.4.13 - 4 deep

396 B.C. - Persian cavalry - Dascyleium - Xenophon, Hellenica, Book 3.4.13 - 12 abreast, "many men deep"

362 B.C. - Athenian and allied cavalry - Mantinea - Xenophon, Hellenica, Book 7.5.23 - 6 deep

362 B.C. - Theban cavalry - Mantinea - Xenophon, Hellenica, Book 7.5.24 - "a strong column of his cavalry, also, and [Epaminondas] had mingled foot soldiers among them"; ie, more than 6 deep

????? (Psiloi) are described as deploying 8 deep in Asclepiodotus, Tactica, Book 6.2

????? (Psiloi) are described as deploying 8 deep in Aelian-Arrian, On Tactics, Book 15.2

In discussing military hypotheses, specifically criticizing Callisthenes (one of the extant sources of Alexander the Great), Polybius tells us, The Histories, Book 12.18.3,

"…to be really useful cavalry should not be drawn up more than 8 deep, and between each troop there must be a space equal in length to the front of a troop so that there may be no difficulty in wheeling and facing round…"

Hope this helped!

James Big Grin
"A ship in harbor is safe - but that is not what ships are built for."

James K MacKinnon
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#5
A very useful reference list, James. Smile
...as you say, Pritchett is not easy to get hold of !
Worthy of laudes, if only we could still award them...... Sad
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#6
Thank you very much James!
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#7
Thank you Paul (looking forward to getting some free time and involving myself in some of the great discussions here; you guys are just great!); your welcome, Paul Big Grin

Quote:Worthy of laudes, if only we could still award them...

What?? After all the ostensible conciliation and help I just contributed, and I am apprised after the post?? Oh, I gotta retract it now :lol:

James
"A ship in harbor is safe - but that is not what ships are built for."

James K MacKinnon
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#8
Quote:Thank you Paul (looking forward to getting some free time and involving myself in some of the great discussions here; you guys are just great!); your welcome, Paul

We welcome you eagerly, but you will need to change your name to Paul...
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
Reply
#9
Quite right Paul ! Smile D

Perhaps, in true Roman fashion, we can adopt him into the gens Paul/Paullus ? :lol:
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#10
I suppose that will necessitate my adoption of Paul-ralus?

Perhaps New Paul will suffice...
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#11
You mean like "new Bruce" ? :wink: Smile D ....We could stick to Paularus, the distinction is clear.....
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#12
Anyone have this on .pdf?


"The Spartan army at Mantinea and its organisation in the fifth century B.C." Singor, H.W


https://www.openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/ha ... de=default
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
Reply
#13
I don't have it: more's the pity. Know of the book (Brill) but at 198 AUD I've baulked at buying. That's a bit for possibly a few chapters of interest!

Shall cast about and see if I can find an alternative.
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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