4th century knife sheaths

[Medicus matt]

I've just finished making a couple of 4th century 'military' knives, based on examples from Lankhills (pictures to follow) and I'm now wondering about sheaths (making sheaths and scabbards is what I do).

However, apart from one bit of mineralised leather adhering to one of the blades, the finds themselves give no clues as to sheath construction. The lack of metal fittings lead to the obvious conclusion that we're looking at a relatively simple, unadorned leather sheath but, apart from that, I'm at a loss. I know that the same form of knife has been found in continental graves so was wondering if any of them were found with sheath remains...at least enough to determine the overall form and the seam location (and possible methods of suspension). I'd hate to make one based on my assumptions, only to find out that there's a perfectly preserved example out there somewhere.

Cheers

[Medicus matt]

No one? Damn.

Best guess it is then.

[Robert Vermaat]

My, aren't we the impatient one!

Matt, my best guess would be to keeep it simple. I've just bought a big knife from Robert (pictures to follow) and I'm thinking of a simple leather-over felt sheath. Since knives must be drawn quickly (I assume) I'm thinking of a suspention on a thin belt rather than from loops on the broad belt. But I'll have a test of what works best.

[Medicus matt]

My, aren't we the impatient one!

Matt, my best guess would be to keeep it simple. I've just bought a big knife from Robert (pictures to follow) and I'm thinking of a simple leather-over felt sheath. Since knives must be drawn quickly (I assume) I'm thinking of a suspention on a thin belt rather than from loops on the broad belt. But I'll have a test of what works best.

Yes. I'm supposed to be delivering them next weekend. :wink:
I know that, with knife sheaths, form usually follows function. It was the seam issue that was vexing me most. I think I'll go for a back-seam. More fiddly but no stitches to cut if the owner puts the blade into the sheath the wrong way round.

Felt? FELT? Ooooh, I've got lots of hand made natural grey felt at home. I sometimes use it on later scabbards and sheaths but never seen evidence for a late roman/early medieval sheath with a felt lining. Any evidence for use in 4th/5th C?

[Robert Vermaat]

I know that, with knife sheaths, form usually follows function. It was the seam issue that was vexing me most. I think I'll go for a back-seam. More fiddly but no stitches to cut if the owner puts the blade into the sheath the wrong way round.

I see what you mean. But doing so would damage the sheath beyond repair, while repaing some stitches would keep the sheath functional?

Felt? FELT? Ooooh, I've got lots of hand made natural grey felt at home. I sometimes use it on later scabbards and sheaths but never seen evidence for a late roman/early medieval sheath with a felt lining. Any evidence for use in 4th/5th C?

Well, nothing straithforward. But I had been wondering if some sword scabbards would not have been lined with felt instead on 'animal skin' or whatever organic material was claimed to be on the inside. Felt would be a great liner and it would also retain any oil to preserve the metal better.

For me it's a more practical reason - the weapon sits more tight in the sheath. :? oops:

[Medicus matt]

I had been wondering if some sword scabbards would not have been lined with felt instead on 'animal skin' or whatever organic material was claimed to be on the inside. Felt would be a great liner and it would also retain any oil to preserve the metal better.

For me it's a more practical reason - the weapon sits more tight in the sheath. :? oops:

Shame on you. :wink:

I'll hold my hands up though because I do the same.
Getting a piece of "fleece-on" sheepskin thin enough to use as a scabbard liner is a real pain. When I do use it I have to skive the skin down from the usual 2mm down to less than half of that.
Sally Pointer hand-makes me large pieces of felt from undyed fleece, a 36" x 12" piece costs me £10 and lines 3 sword scabbards.

[dave budd]

so what did you go with sheath wise in the end?

I'm interested to find any examples of leather sheathes. Construction and decoration.

I've never liked the rear seamed sheathes myself. I prefer a welted construction for safety (1/2" wide strip of leather is much tougher than a single layer!) but there are times and places that never seem to go down that route for some reason?

[garrelt]

The pictures attached are from the publication:

Berichten van de rijksdienst voor het oudheidkundig bodemonderzoek.
Jaargang 12-13,1962-1963
Die Funde aus dem fruhmittelalterlichen Graberfeld Huinerveld bei Putten im Museum Nairac in Barneveld (Netherlands)
By J. Ypey
Page 99-152

There is no exact dating on these finds because these have being described by the former curator Mr. J.D. van der Waals "as a worthless collection of iron".
So in general it could have being collected and put in a box without any documentation.
Which is not exceptional for older excavations.
The dating of all the artefacts, according to the text, can have a range between the 5th and 8th century.
At least I hope these pictures can still help you.

All sheaths are made of leather but no traces left of loops or other ways of belt attachment.
Also these sheaths are plain so no decoration or dye.
And one being a "pocket knife" there is no need for a sheath, you just carry it folded in a pouch.
On some of the knives in the whole collection there are some traces of wood or horn being used for the grips.

[dave budd]

any references and examples are useful, thankyou

[Medicus matt]

so what did you go with sheath wise in the end?

I'm interested to find any examples of leather sheathes. Construction and decoration.

In the absence of any other evidence, I opted for 'very simple'. I'll post a pic later.

Construction and decoration of early migration period stuff, no problem but late roman stuff in Britain...meh. You can only conclude that, given the lack of metal fittings or any other sheath remains at Lankhills, they were simple leather and any decoration remains a mystery.

[Medicus matt]

The pictures attached are from the publication:

Berichten van de rijksdienst voor het oudheidkundig bodemonderzoek.
Jaargang 12-13,1962-1963
Die Funde aus dem fruhmittelalterlichen Graberfeld Huinerveld bei Putten im Museum Nairac in Barneveld (Netherlands)
By J. Ypey
Page 99-152

Thanks for the pics garrelt, more to add to the file!

[Medicus matt]

Here you go then....like I said, I opted for 'very simple'. The fit is loose enough (relying on depth rather than tightness for security) for stitch cutting not to be an issue but I compressed the leather below the stitch line and hammered the seam, just to give it a bit of extra integrity. It's a common enough method for early medieval knife sheaths so it'll do the job for this.
[attachment=1:1jrn9njx]<!-- ia1 lankknife1.JPG<!-- ia1 [/attachment:1jrn9njx]
[attachment=0:1jrn9njx]<!-- ia0 lankknife2.JPG<!-- ia0 [/attachment:1jrn9njx]

[dave budd]

what have you used for teh stitching there Matt? I'm guessing there is no welt?

[Medicus matt]

what have you used for teh stitching there Matt? I'm guessing there is no welt?

Just doubled up waxed linen thread. No welt, because you don't find welts on any of the surviving examples of early medieval sheaths, at least not on any of the ones I've examined.
Heavily compressing the leather below the stitch line whilst wet does the job well enough for a light knife like this.