Rome and Carthage - Why no subserviant alliance

[Timotheus]

When Rome conquered Italy she as a matter of course bound her defeated foes to herself with subserviant alliances that made them defacto members of the Roman Republic. These allies would pay tribute or supply men and materials for use in Rome's wars.

Does anyone know why this was not done with Carthage? I can only imagine the boost Rome woudl have received if she had permanently bound Carthage to the Republic at the end of the First Punic War.

It would have greatly benefitted Rome both short term and long term. Rome had the superior military but never got her economy all that much beyond the pillage stage especially in the Empire where looting defeated foes like Dacia helped to stave off major financial problems. With Carthage as a permanent ally Rome could have greatly improved her economic practices in the ancient world. The benefit to Rome would have been enourmous.

The only reason I can think of why this did not happen is that compared to the Italian states Carthage was a hell of a lot larger and so would have been more difficult to keep in a subserviant position. Hindsight says that the merging of the two ancient nations would have created an even more powerful powerhouse with Carthage economic expertise filling in for Roman shortcomings, but like I said this is hindsight and not something Rome would have considered.

[M. Demetrius]

Well, the only thing that comes to mind immediately is that Rome was obliged to fight THREE major wars against Carthage, and had suffered the indignities from Carthage that Hannibal and his men dished out in Southern Italy. I don't believe they ever would have gotten along, the generational hatred from both directions was too intense.

[Timotheus]

Well, the only thing that comes to mind immediately is that Rome was obliged to fight THREE major wars against Carthage, and had suffered the indignities from Carthage that Hannibal and his men dished out in Southern Italy. I don't believe they ever would have gotten along, the generational hatred from both directions was too intense.

By the end of the second war I can completely agree with what you say. The third war really was a farce and an excuse by some paranoid Senators who wanted to destroy the city.

But at the end of the first war I cannot see why Rome would not have set up a permanent alliance between the two with Rome as the senior partner, basically the same thing done to the various states in Italy. The big limiters would be distance and size, Carthage is much larger than any other state Rome has suborned to itself and much further away. The long term reward would have been much larger.

[Magnus]

Because Lions and Hyenas don't make alliances...too much competition for resources and power.

[Timotheus]

Because Lions and Hyenas don't make alliances...too much competition for resources and power.

The same could be said for many of the cities forced into alliances with Rome. If Carthage was put into a subserviant position it wouldnt really matter to Rome.

One other thought does come to mind. Carthage was always big into using mercenaries. Their own troops were in rather small numbers. Maybe to Rome Carthage did not see valuable since she could not supply men and material for conquest the way her other allies did.

[barcid]

Because Lions and Hyenas don't make alliances...too much competition for resources and power.

I hope you ment Punic Lions & woeman dogs :lol: am i biased no way :wink:

[Timotheus]

Because Lions and Hyenas don't make alliances...too much competition for resources and power.

I hope you ment Punic Lions & woeman dogs :lol: am i biased no way :wink:

Except most "punic" lions were mercenary lions. What percent of any army deployed by Carthage actually included Carthaginians?

[barcid]

Because Lions and Hyenas don't make alliances...too much competition for resources and power.

I hope you ment Punic Lions & woeman dogs :lol: am i biased no way :wink:

Except most "punic" lions were mercenary lions. What percent of any army deployed by Carthage actually included Carthaginians?

5-10% in the 1st & 2nd punic wars 3rd was higher 20% ,if it at all matters they were generaly well lead hirelings :wink:

[Sean Manning]

Did Rome win the 1st Punic War well enough to force Carthage to become a subject 'ally'? It usually took a series of wars over several generations for Rome to beat down a neighbour enough to make them reliable socii.

Timotheus, its not true that the Roman economy was primitive compared to Carthage once the expansion overseas got going. Roman economic power spread accross the Mediterranean at least as fast as Roman armies did. The Principate, like the Hellenstic East before it, boasted one of the richest economies in history before 1850.

[Jesper D]

What makes you think they did not try and failed? It is one thing to beat down and dominate smaller Italian cities over more than a century and another to try to make one of the most powerful mediterreanean cities subservient in such a short time.
I'd say that Rome was just not powerful enough to do just that at that time, after all Rome was just a greedy teenage wolf pup with a mean disposition and a fledgling empire in tow in those days

[M. Demetrius]

its not true that the Roman economy was primitive compared to Carthage

I've read that they had compound interest loans, and established trade lines, and credit systems more or less like what we do today, although with a little more freedom to collect debts...a city state didn't pay their bill? Well, just level the place, and take what is left after the fires. Heh.

(*smack!* self-slap administered) Now back on topic.

[S SEVERUS]

Did Rome win the 1st Punic War well enough to force Carthage to become a subject 'ally'? It usually took a series of wars over several generations for Rome to beat down a neighbour enough to make them reliable socii. .

I think that's the answer. During the first war, Rome was defeated on the main land of Carthage so Rome was'nt eager enough to try it a second time. After the war they exploited the mercenary war by obtaining Corsica and Sardinia but the refrained from attacking Carthage on her main land. So, Rome was glad to have a peace with give them a lot of booty (Carthage had to pay a great amount of talents) and gave them control over Sicilia and gave them a client king at Syracuse.
Maybe the gold of Carthage even bought some senators to keep the peace for a while??


After the second war, Rome was eager to see Carthage humiliated and it kept it's ally Massinassa busy.