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Some Aspis Revisionism
#34
Quote:Finally, the aspis is best used 1/3 to 2/3s on to the opponent--more edge on than fron on, in may cases. You parry with the edge--you can thrust with it too, and use the strength of the porpax desgn to get it back on your shoulder.

As I said earlier, this is completely consistant with the art. I have problems with it because it to a great extent eliminates the whole "shield wall" element of a phalanx, but if we simply look at how a man in hoplite panoply should fight there is evidence by way of analogy to support this. I am constantly looking for analogous combat styles or even analogous elements for which we have better textual support in order the bolster our understanding of hoplite combat. There are some simmilarities to fencing, not modern sport fencing (there is the side-on stance), but period fencing. In De Grassi's fencing manual of 1594, he gives advice on how best to fence with a rapier and large round shield. His experience dovetails nicely with Christian's above.

Quote:IF a man would so beare the rounde Target, that it may cover the whole bodie, and yet nothing hinder him from seeing his enimie, which is a matter of great importance, it is requisite, that he beare it towardes the enimie, not with the convexe or outward parte thereof, altogither equall, plaine or even, neither to holde his arme so bowed, that in his elbowe there be made (if not a sharpe yet) at least a straight corner. For besides that (by so holding it) it wearieth the arme: it likewise so hindereth the sight, that if hee would see his enimie from the brest downwardes, of necessitie he must either abase his Target, or beare his head so peeping forwardes, that it may be sooner hurt than the Target may come to warde it. And farther it so defendeth, that onely so much of the bodie is warded, as the Target is bigg, or little more, becau?e it cannot more then the halfe arme, from the elbowe to the ?houlder, which is verie little, as everie man knoweth or may perceive: So that the head shal be warded with great paine, and the thighes shal altogether remaine discovered, in such sort, that to save the bellie, he shal leave all the rest of the bodie in ieopardie. Therefore, if he would ?o holde the said Target, that it may well defend all that part of the bodie, which is from the knee upwardes, and that he maie see his enimie, it is requi?ite that he beare his arme, if not right, yet at lea?t bowed so little, that in the elbowe there be framed so blunt an angle or corner, that his eyebeames passing neere that part of the circumference of the Target, which is neere his hande, may ?ee his enimie from the head to the foot. And by holding the saide convexe parte in this manner, it shall warde all the left ?ide, and the circumference neere the hande shall with the least motion defend all the right side, the head and the thighes. And in this maner he shall keepe his enimie in sight & defend all that parte of the body, which is allotted unto the said Target. Therefore the said Target ?hall be born, th arme in a manner so streight towards the left ?ide, that the eye?ight may passe to beholde the enimie without mooving, for this onely occasion, either the head, or the Target.

This position, along with the underhand grip, I would easily support for the loose combat following a rout and persuit, but I still am sceptical about its use in formed phalanx. A formation like a phalanx is something more than the sum of its parts, thus we need to be careful not to simply add individuals together doing what works best for them when they are alone. Again, this could be completely correct, or correct for some periods of the phalanx or some situations and not others. I just happened to have De Grassi saved and remembered the quote, but there are many such fencing manuals and maybe some further research would yeild fruit. I'll attach the image from the manual below.
Paul M. Bardunias
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Messages In This Thread
Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 06-03-2009, 07:58 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 06-03-2009, 08:02 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 06-03-2009, 08:06 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 06-03-2009, 08:15 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Paullus Scipio - 06-03-2009, 08:36 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 06-03-2009, 08:44 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Paullus Scipio - 06-03-2009, 10:09 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 06-04-2009, 12:21 AM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 06-04-2009, 01:05 AM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by hoplite14gr - 06-04-2009, 11:49 AM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by MeinPanzer - 06-04-2009, 04:40 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by hoplite14gr - 06-04-2009, 06:04 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 06-04-2009, 07:34 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 06-04-2009, 08:01 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Paullus Scipio - 06-04-2009, 08:09 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Paullus Scipio - 06-04-2009, 09:10 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Paullus Scipio - 06-04-2009, 10:44 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Paullus Scipio - 06-04-2009, 11:15 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 06-05-2009, 05:36 AM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by hoplite14gr - 06-05-2009, 10:56 AM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 06-05-2009, 03:18 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 06-05-2009, 04:43 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 06-05-2009, 05:26 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 06-05-2009, 09:54 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 06-05-2009, 11:00 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 06-06-2009, 02:21 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by hoplite14gr - 06-06-2009, 05:43 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 06-06-2009, 06:58 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 06-06-2009, 07:30 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Paullus Scipio - 06-06-2009, 09:33 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 06-07-2009, 01:50 AM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 06-07-2009, 03:35 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 06-08-2009, 10:49 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Paullus Scipio - 06-08-2009, 10:56 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by keravnos - 06-09-2009, 09:47 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 07-03-2009, 03:23 AM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 07-03-2009, 03:27 AM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 07-03-2009, 03:30 AM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 07-03-2009, 04:16 AM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 07-03-2009, 04:23 AM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by MeinPanzer - 07-03-2009, 06:04 AM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 07-03-2009, 01:00 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 07-03-2009, 02:01 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by nikolaos - 07-03-2009, 02:33 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 07-03-2009, 03:52 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Kineas - 07-03-2009, 04:25 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 07-03-2009, 04:36 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by nikolaos - 07-03-2009, 04:47 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Paullus Scipio - 07-03-2009, 09:10 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by nikolaos - 07-06-2009, 01:19 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 07-16-2009, 08:53 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Paullus Scipio - 07-16-2009, 09:08 PM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 07-17-2009, 01:19 AM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by Paullus Scipio - 07-17-2009, 01:44 AM
Re: Some Aspis Revisionism - by PMBardunias - 07-17-2009, 02:29 AM

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