Getae and Dacians? Are they the same? Or is this unknowable?

[Alanus]

Hello, Rumo

I'll try not to lengthen this thread beyond the limits of patience and readability, and simply discuss your major points. And if any revisionist historians are tuning in, that's fine. They could use an education in ancient weaponry. As a Roman reenactor, I seem to be surrounded by swords and bows, plus a pile of clanky armor. First off, they're called "swords," not "sabers" as Professor Heather so inventively describes them. A saber is a single-edged weapon. A sword cuts both ways, if you get my drift. :lol:

By the way, I've never claimed that Gothic society spoke only Gothic. I said Gothic was the dominent language, the one spoken more or less "officially." Every army needs a uniform language and terminology, and Gothic was it.

There's no evidence Tervingi worshipped a sword, let alone one named Tyrfing.
Herodotus mentioned Scythians worshipping Ares by planting swords on the top of mounds, which is not quite the same thing.

There are a bunch of these Black Sea styled swords pictured on the net, through dealers, and some are illustrated on various RAT threads. The later ones carry studs of Indic garnets on the hilt, and most hilts are either silver or gold. They were made more for ritual than as usable weapons. Some of the nicest and oldest come from the kurgans around Fillipovka, others from Issyk Kul. Attila found one that legitimized him, in his way of thinking. The Romans called them the "Sword or Mars," while the Greeks termed them "Ares." To the steppe cultures-- the Scythians, Saka, Massagetae, Alans, and Goths-- it was a physical representative of their progenitor god. In most cases, the sword was planted in a mound or on a pile of faggots. More or less, this tripart arrangement is known as the "axis mundi." We still see it today as the steeple atop churches. Importantly, it IS the "same thing." And in fact the only recorded name for it is 'Tyrfing," so we are indebted to the Goths or more precisely the Tyrfingi, "people of the sword."

The sword was named after Tyr, one of the oldest Germanic gods. (He still lives with us every "Tues"day.) "His name belongs rather to the region of symbolism than of mythology, although the conjunction of this emblem with the circle is in itself a subject of some interest. Hence we are led to expect that the special emblem under which Tyr was worshiped would be the sword." (George W. Cox, 1882.) Many of these ritual swords were made by the Goths themselves, others by the Sarmatians, and still others by a Black Sea tribe known as the Chalybes. The finished blade was called "chalibis" by the Romans, ferro exchalibis, aka "steel." (consult any Latin-English thesarus) And as far as we know, this is the earliest record of "steel," not just regular steel but rather a type that contained crystalized layers of carbon within it-- the forerunner of "Damascus." This placed the ritual sword at a premium price; and strangely enough one of these chalibis swords ended up in Britain or Gaul as "exchalibur," ie "excellence from chalibis."

Now let's detour to the Hervar Saga, "The Gotic land is here called Tyrfinger ("the Tervingian"), the same name that is given to the mythical hereditary sword of the Goths. This presupposed that the Thraco-Scythian Ares-Mars, who was seen as the incarnation of the people and the land and who also manifested himself in the shape of a sword, had been accepted as a Gothic god.... The sword incarnation, however, is neither a Germanic nor a Scandinavian phenomenon; instead it's the characteristic epiphany of the Black Sea Ares-Mars among all ethnic groups." (Wolfram) The sword Tyrfing is singularly recorded in the very name of the Tryfingi. And in the extremely long run, the evidence now sells for big moola on the antiquities auction block.

I'd rather not be part of that world of "common sense". Those links are not irrefutable, but rather speculative and unlikely. There are many possible scenarios, some quite trivial, e.g. a Germanic word interpreted by two different cultures came to mean two different things in two different contexts, a sword and the name of a tribe.

Sure, Rumo. It's just coincidence. But if you coincidentally happen to find one of these swords buried in the ancient soil of Rumania, just wrap it carefully and mail it to me. :wink:
Thanks.