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Getae and Dacians? Are they the same? Or is this unknowable?
Hailog, Rumo

Quote:One of the groups of Goths crossing the Danube was led by Alatheus and Saphrax. You already admitted Saphrax is of Iranian origin. Alatheus is somewhat controversial, as some scholars find it Germanic, some find it Iranian (for instance John Matthews in The Roman empire of Ammianus, 1989, p. 326). Other Gothic leaders from the same period with apparently non Germanic names are Farnobius (Pharn(a)- is an onomastic root of Iranian origin....

First off, I "stated" that Safrax was an Alan. I did not "admit" he was one, because there was no argument for him being otherwise. Perhaps the nomen Alatheus is also Iranian, but it doesn't matter. That's not the point; and shifting gears to Matthews doesn't help you much. There is one fact that is entirely Not Controversial-- He was a high-ranking Greutungus within the Gothic social framework.

These two men are linked to the Eastern Goths who lived in the same geographical location of the east part of the Cernjachov Culture. Ermaneric appears to be the last king involved in the great consolidation of all these eastern tribes; and after his death, the new king was Vithimiris. Upon the death of Vithimiris, his young son Vidimir was placed in charge of Alatheus and Safrax, "the Two Duces," his guardians and regents. Alatheus was obviously a Greutungus, simply because the tribe would not have handed Vidimir over to the Alans. It was the specific role of Two Duces to raise Videric until he reached majority and would assume leadership of the Greutungi.

Quote:Ulfilas preached to some communities on the Danube. How can their language be relevant for the entire Gothia?

Their language wasn't relative to the entire extent of Gothia, but it was relative to the leadership of the Tyrfingi. We find a civil war rising after Ulfilas and his future "Gothi minores" were admitted into the Eastern Empire-- aka Fritigern vs Athanaric. A closer look at the wheelings and dealings between Fritigern and Valens shows that Fritigern was in all probability an Arian Christian several years prior to his crossing into the Empire in 376. In either 370 or 371, he asked Valens for aid against Athanaric; and he was given riparian troops (or maybe cavalry) in this fight.

This set a precedent. Prior to this, no barbarian leader was ever given aid by a Roman emperor to settle a dispute outside the empire (that I know of). Fritigern "used" Arianism, the staunch faith of Valens, to battle Athanaric who was conducting a persecution of Christians at exactly this time. Of course, there is also the probability that Fritigern was a former federate officer. But what is important, Fritigern spoke (and probably read) Ulfilas' Gothic language, as did his cousin Alaviv. (So did his nephew Alaric, who had Bishop Sigesar in his camp.) Obviously, Fritigern remained on good terms with Valens, and we see cooperation again a few years later. The current view of historians-- that all of Fritigern's Goths knelt before a presbyter of Valens-- is somewhat simplistic.

Quite frankly, your insistance that the Gothic hierarchy spoke a language other than Gothic has no substrantive foundation. You haven't shown any real proof, only suggesting that the entire Gothic culture did not speak the command language. These are entirely different associations-- (a) hierarchial command language and (b) varying tongues of a broader populace within the Guthilda. You are using the opinions of Heather, or Matthews, or whomever, but their writings are opinions not gospel. An inquiring mind has the perfect right to disagree with any opinion until it can be proven unequivically sound. And that hasn't happened yet.
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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Messages In This Thread
Re: Getae and Dacians? - by Vincula - 11-15-2009, 09:48 PM
Re: Getae and Dacians? Are they the same? Or is this unknowable? - by Alanus - 11-17-2009, 07:15 PM

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