06-20-2009, 07:53 AM
Scott B. wrote:
Have you looked at the iconography? Apparently not , or you would have come across the 'Alexander Mosaic' where several Persians wear what appear to be, and are most commonly interpreted as, red quilted Tube-and_Yoke corselets. Combine this with Plutarch's reference, which, taken in isolation is ambiguous as to quilting, but together with the mosaic is good evidence for quilted Persian corselets. Then, from the other end of the Mediterranean world there are statues, statuettes and friezes all showing Etruscans also wearing what are best interpreted as quilted Tube-and-Yoke corselets.
Whist, as you rightly say, there can be no certainty about this subject, the evidence has been thoroughly dealt with on this site in several long threads, and this statement cannot go unchallenged, if only for those readers who have not read those other very long threads!
Homer certainly refers to linen armour. He does nor IIRC use the word 'Linothorax' which is modern. However that does not mean that the Greeks of Classical Greece wore linen Tube-and-Yoke corselets....the linen armour had fallen out of use centuries before.
Cornelius Nepos ( writing centuries later) has a very garbled tale, having Iphicrates replace Mail with linen armour, a hopless anachronism.Compare to our other source regarding Iphicrates 'reforms', Diodorus where there is no mention of mail or linen.
Herodotus does not refer to linen armour when speaking of the gifts of Pharoah Amasis to Greek temples. No Greek Goddess, AFIK, was ever depicted wearing body armour, not even the war-like Athena - only Amazons wear corselets. Herodotus here is using 'thorakes' in it's original sense of 'body covering' or garment. The practise of clothing statues of Athena in real clothes was well known. The same applies to the garment that the Samians stole from the Lakedaemonians.
The linen coselets dedicated by Gelon were not Greek, nor the Anatolian ones. Linen armour was certainly known and used in Anatolia, but I would aver there is absolutely no evidence that a linen Tube-and-Yoke corselet was generally worn in Greece in classical times, including the era of Alexander.Herodotus at 7.63 is referring to Assyrians in the Persian army wearing linen armour ( which might well have been quilted). Pausanias and Xenophon both refer to Anatolian linen armour, not Greek. Indeed where Xenophon refers to Greek body armour it is (probably) bronze 'thorakes' or leather 'spolades'.
Alcaeus of Lesbos surviving fragments of poetry are almost certainly referring to Homeric times, and even if not, Lesbos is off the coast of Asia Minor, where linen armour was known to be worn, and tells us nothing about mainland Greece.
As for Macedonian armour, the fact that old (infested with parasites body armour) was burnt tells only that it was organic, and the fact that Macedonian tombs apparently produce leather fragments, but not linen ones suggests that the Macedonians wore leather 'spolades'. ( One would like to see the full reports of these many tomb findings).
Having said this, I would agree that "the jury is out" on the commonest material used in classical Greece for Tube-and-Yoke corselets, but the weight of evidence suggests that leather, for which there is a little evidence, is slightly more likely than linen, for which there is no real evidence at all. Certainly the Greeks were aware of linen corselets, as the sources you cite show, but that is not evidence that the Greeks themselves used linen.What is all but certain is that Connolly's suggestion of glued layers of linen is almost certainly incorrect.
Quote:I have done my own work. I have been researching this for over five years now. Nothing I have ever come across from ancient sources ever suggests quilted armor. Unless I am overlooking each and every source which speaks about quilted armor???
I'm not asking for an entire list of every ancient source which cites quilted armor, just a few. I am curious where your unmovable opinion is based
Have you looked at the iconography? Apparently not , or you would have come across the 'Alexander Mosaic' where several Persians wear what appear to be, and are most commonly interpreted as, red quilted Tube-and_Yoke corselets. Combine this with Plutarch's reference, which, taken in isolation is ambiguous as to quilting, but together with the mosaic is good evidence for quilted Persian corselets. Then, from the other end of the Mediterranean world there are statues, statuettes and friezes all showing Etruscans also wearing what are best interpreted as quilted Tube-and-Yoke corselets.
Whist, as you rightly say, there can be no certainty about this subject, the evidence has been thoroughly dealt with on this site in several long threads, and this statement cannot go unchallenged, if only for those readers who have not read those other very long threads!
Quote:John Conyard wrote:
It could be a reference to the thickenss of the spun linen, or to layers of glued/quilted linen. But certainly an armour uncommon to the Greeks.
This is not true. The Greeks had known about linen armor back to the time of Homer. He mentions it twice in the Iliad: describing the 'lesser Ajax' who "wore a linothorax" (2.529), and "...these were led by the linothorax-wearing Adrastus and Amphius, the twin sons of Merops of Percote" (2.830). Strabo would later almost perfectly recite this description from Homer in his Geography at 13.1.10.
Cornelius Nepos tells us that as part of his military reforms in the early 4th century B.C., Iphicrates exchanged the heavy bronze armor of the hoplite in favor of the lighter linen corselet. The reforms were intended to increase the speed and mobility of the soldier while still "providing sufficient security for their bodies" (Cornelius Nepos, Iphicrates 1.3-4). If the linen corselet were considered inferior to bronze armor, or lacking the ability to provide "sufficient" protection, I hardly think Iphicrates would have chosen this style of armor.
Herodotus also speaks of two examples of linen armor when mentioning the breastplates that King Amasis of Egypt sends to certain Greek temples to be dedicated there: one given to a temple of Athena at Lindos (2.182), and one given to the Lacedaimonians (3.47). The same corselet at Lindos could still be viewed in the first century A.D. according to Pliny (Natural History 19.2), although in a tattered state due to curious tourists who liked to play around with it. Other dedicatory examples include three breastplates of linen dedicated by Gelon and the Syracusians after a victory over the Phoenicians that could be found in the treasury of the Carthagianians at Olympia (Pausanias 6.19.7), and a cache of multiple corselets of linen armor found at the temple of Apollo at Gryneion in Asia Minor (Pausanias 1.21.9).
There are yet more examples to be found which suggests linen armor was common, or at least well-known, to the Greeks: Xenophon's Anabasis 4.7.16, Xenophon's Cyropaedia 6.4.2, Herodotus 7.63, and Alcaeus 2.19, to name a few.
Homer certainly refers to linen armour. He does nor IIRC use the word 'Linothorax' which is modern. However that does not mean that the Greeks of Classical Greece wore linen Tube-and-Yoke corselets....the linen armour had fallen out of use centuries before.
Cornelius Nepos ( writing centuries later) has a very garbled tale, having Iphicrates replace Mail with linen armour, a hopless anachronism.Compare to our other source regarding Iphicrates 'reforms', Diodorus where there is no mention of mail or linen.
Herodotus does not refer to linen armour when speaking of the gifts of Pharoah Amasis to Greek temples. No Greek Goddess, AFIK, was ever depicted wearing body armour, not even the war-like Athena - only Amazons wear corselets. Herodotus here is using 'thorakes' in it's original sense of 'body covering' or garment. The practise of clothing statues of Athena in real clothes was well known. The same applies to the garment that the Samians stole from the Lakedaemonians.
The linen coselets dedicated by Gelon were not Greek, nor the Anatolian ones. Linen armour was certainly known and used in Anatolia, but I would aver there is absolutely no evidence that a linen Tube-and-Yoke corselet was generally worn in Greece in classical times, including the era of Alexander.Herodotus at 7.63 is referring to Assyrians in the Persian army wearing linen armour ( which might well have been quilted). Pausanias and Xenophon both refer to Anatolian linen armour, not Greek. Indeed where Xenophon refers to Greek body armour it is (probably) bronze 'thorakes' or leather 'spolades'.
Alcaeus of Lesbos surviving fragments of poetry are almost certainly referring to Homeric times, and even if not, Lesbos is off the coast of Asia Minor, where linen armour was known to be worn, and tells us nothing about mainland Greece.
As for Macedonian armour, the fact that old (infested with parasites body armour) was burnt tells only that it was organic, and the fact that Macedonian tombs apparently produce leather fragments, but not linen ones suggests that the Macedonians wore leather 'spolades'. ( One would like to see the full reports of these many tomb findings).
Having said this, I would agree that "the jury is out" on the commonest material used in classical Greece for Tube-and-Yoke corselets, but the weight of evidence suggests that leather, for which there is a little evidence, is slightly more likely than linen, for which there is no real evidence at all. Certainly the Greeks were aware of linen corselets, as the sources you cite show, but that is not evidence that the Greeks themselves used linen.What is all but certain is that Connolly's suggestion of glued layers of linen is almost certainly incorrect.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
