Glued Linen Armour- a simple test

[rocktupac]

Have you looked at the iconography? Apparently not , or you would have come across the 'Alexander Mosaic' where several Persians wear what appear to be, and are most commonly interpreted as, red quilted Tube-and_Yoke corselets.

Yes, I have looked at the iconography and am very familiar with the 'Alexander Mosaic'. If you are referring to the three Persians that appear to be wearing the tube-and-yoke corselet, there is nothing in the visual evidence which suggests them to be quilted. Their undergarments perhaps, as they do look quilted, but simply from visual evidence one cannot make this judgment or interpret this with any amount of certainty.

This just came to mind: shouldn't Darius be wearing a tube-and-yoke corselet in the 'Alexander Mosaic'? If the corselet Alexander retrieved after Issus did in fact belong to Darius (as it is often interpreted), why isn't Darius shown to be wearing one? If many believe the corselet Alexander took after Issus and wore at the battle of Gaugamela (Plutarch 32) was in fact Darius's, then this strongly suggests Darius wore this type of corselet, unless he just hauled the corselet around for every battle he participated in and did not wear it (but this seems peculiar). So if Darius wore a tube-and-yoke corselet, why does he not have one on in the 'Alexander Mosaic'? Alexander is wearing one.

Combine this with Plutarch's reference, which, taken in isolation is ambiguous as to quilting, but together with the mosaic is good evidence for quilted Persian corselets. Then, from the other end of the Mediterranean world there are statues, statuettes and friezes all showing Etruscans also wearing what are best interpreted as quilted Tube-and-Yoke corselets.

If indeed the Persians wearing the tube-and-yoke corselets in the 'Mosaic' also have on quilted undergarments, then this at least shows how quilted items were portrayed in the ancient world; and this is exactly how one would expect them to appear: not smooth or lacking definable quilting marks, but checkered or grid-like. This quilted-grid design would have been familiar to any viewer and they would have immediately recognized this as a quilted undergarment. (See especially the soldier looking back in horror directly below Darius frantically holding onto a horse's reins.) The soldier to the right of Darius that appears to be wearing a red tube-and-yoke corselet does not have any type of quilting marks on his corselet; it is smooth and in one piece (from what we can tell at least).

Whist, as you rightly say, there can be no certainty about this subject, the evidence has been thoroughly dealt with on this site in several long threads...

Simply because an online forum deals with the subject, any subject, to a great degree does not make the matter solved. Nor does it give weight to one side or the other. Again, I'm not saying I am right, you are wrong. I'm not even attempting to dismiss the existence of the Greeks using quilted armor, or laminated armor for that matter. I only wish to make my judgments on the evidence we have and not on theory or loose interpretations that cannot be proven.

Homer certainly refers to linen armour. He does nor IIRC use the word 'Linothorax' which is modern.

Homer certainly does use the word. It is not modern. The lesser Ajax wears a "linothorex" in 2.529, and later at 2.830 Adrastus and Amphius also wear one (...Adrestos te kai Amphios linothorex...).

However that does not mean that the Greeks of Classical Greece wore linen Tube-and-Yoke corselets.... (bold added by me) the linen armour had fallen out of use centuries before.

How can you be certain? Not one Greek army or contingent, regardless of the enormous expense of bronze armor, wore the linen tube-and-yoke corselet in the Classical Age? Is there evidence to support this? Didn't Iphicrates, the Athenian general who lived in the Classical era, institute a reform which placed soldiers in linen corselets (Cornelius Nepos, Iphicrates 1.3-4)? There are also numerous vase paintings from that same era that clearly depict soldiers of the phalanx wearing the tube-and-yoke corselet. Are we to assume these are contemporary depictions of warfare at the time (i.e. Classical Greece) with the soldiers wearing archaic armor? Should we also assume that none of the armor was made of linen, despite what Nepos says of Iphicrates?

Cornelius Nepos ( writing centuries later) has a very garbled tale, having Iphicrates replace Mail with linen armour, a hopless anachronism.

We should not be so quick to reject Cornelius Nepos. I don't translate that as chain mail. Grammatically I don't see the justification for assuming that. I read it as he exchanged the bronze corselet for ones made of linen.

Herodotus does not refer to linen armour when speaking of the gifts of Pharoah Amasis to Greek temples... Herodotus here is using 'thorakes' in it's original sense of 'body covering' or garment...

Herodotus calls the corselets of Amasis "thoraka lineon" (2.182) and he uses the same words to describe the Assyrian's corselets: "lineous thorakas" (7.63). The same goes for the stolen corselet "thorakos" (3.47). How are we to tell what Herodotus meant in each individual usage of the word? There is nothing to suggest that Amasis sent a simple garment to Greece. Herodotus describes each piece (2.182 and 7.63) using the same wording, and the Assyrians are most probably arming themselves with linen corselets, and not garments, since the paragraph lists their various arms and armor. To dismiss the Amasis reference as a mere garment is unfounded in my opinion.

I added the other references to demonstrate that linen corselets were widely-known in the ancient world, not necessarily to prove they were Greek.

Indeed where Xenophon refers to Greek body armour it is (probably) bronze 'thorakes' or leather 'spolades'.

Xenophon (Anabasis 4.7.15) exactly states that the Chalybes people wore corselets of linen ("thorakas linous"). In Xenophon's Cyropaedia (6.4.2), Abradatas puts on his linen corselet, again clearly stated, as was the custom in his country (i.e. Susa), when arming for battle ("linoun thoraka"). No bronze, no leather, no 'spolades'.

As for Macedonian armour, the fact that old (infested with parasites body armour) was burnt tells only that it was organic, and the fact that Macedonian tombs apparently produce leather fragments, but not linen ones suggests that the Macedonians wore leather 'spolades'.

I don't know if we can say they were 'infested with parasites', but the burning does only prove they were organic. It was common practice in Alexander's army to burn unnecessary or useless items (see Curtius 6.6.14-17, Plutarch 57.1-2, Polyaenus Strategemata 4.3.10), so it can't be said that Alexander burned them due to parasites, if that is what you were alluding to. I'm not sure if we can say anything suggests that the Macedonians wore only leather corselets either. After all, to use Plutarch once again, Alexander is mentioned as having a linen corselet before Gaugamela. I am partly playing Devil's advocate. I realize, at this point, it is impossible to determine one way or another.

Having said this, I would agree that "the jury is out" on the commonest material used in classical Greece for Tube-and-Yoke corselets, but the weight of evidence suggests that leather, for which there is a little evidence, is slightly more likely than linen, for which there is no real evidence at all. (bold added by me)

No real evidence at all...except for the abundance of literary references to linen corselets.

Certainly the Greeks were aware of linen corselets, as the sources you cite show, but that is not evidence that the Greeks themselves used linen.What is all but certain is that Connolly's suggestion of glued layers of linen is almost certainly incorrect.

Again, what about Cornelius Nepos? He specifically says that Iphicrates, the 4th c. Athenian general, used corselets made of linen. Whether these were quilted or not, who knows, nonetheless, they were corselets of linen used by Greeks in the Classical era.