Semispathae

[Agraes]

Sorry, forgot to add link:
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/pre...m_3_1_1528

The drawings I refered:

[M. Val. Naso]

Do you think it would be "acceptable", for a late 4th century (Valentinianus) pannonian centurio kit, to get a "special" semispatha?

Meaning: other than the gladii-like short swords found in late roman military context (and here I mean the ones, which are clearly not just broken spathae), I'm able to imagine a dagger-like sica (300-400 mm on the outer curve at most, but I can find no material find younger than I-II. centuries AD), or maybe an early shorter seax (though I only know finds from the 6th century).

It is clear, that in a tight, shield pushing situation (which is really common according to experiences and eye-witness accounts) the spatha is worthless. You will never fight effectively with a min. 700 mm blade length sword against one with a gladius-like one, if you are umbo-to-umbo (this is why the sica was effective reaching behind the shield fast).

I don't want to take it to Fantasy Avenue, I'm really trying to stay authentic with a military sidearm (and not just a knife).

[Flavivs Aetivs]

problem is the semi-spatha was 2-edged. probably something in appearance to the "Macedonian Dagger" from Assassin's Creed Revelations I'd imagine.

Not long enough to be considered a Shortsword but longer than even a Pugio.

[Robert Vermaat]

Do you think it would be "acceptable", for a late 4th century (Valentinianus) pannonian centurio kit, to get a "special" semispatha?

With so few sources about this weapon, anything is possible but nothing is secure. I mean, I have heard everything, from a 'new' short spatha, to a gladius-still-in-use, an early saex.. IF you decide on such a weapon, I think the main thing is that you must be prepared in how to explain it to your audience. My personal rule in such matters is: íf you can't explain it, best leave it'. If not, it becomes a carnival item. Not good.

It is clear, that in a tight, shield pushing situation (which is really common according to experiences and eye-witness accounts) the spatha is worthless. You will never fight effectively with a min. 700 mm blade length sword against one with a gladius-like one, if you are umbo-to-umbo (this is why the sica was effective reaching behind the shield fast).

. I disagree. I happen to think that in such a shield-wall to shield-wall situation, the spatha (which can be used under and over the scutum) has a better impact than any shorter sword. In such a situation, where the stabbing spear/lance is the first weapon, you don't use the slashing quality of the sptha, but the rerach of it. In that, it outclasses the short sword. Although the gladius wasn't exactly short, it's main use was, if I'm not mistaken, especially superior when there's room for a short stab at your opponent. In a tight shieldwall situation, this does not apply. Stabbing over or under the shield (if you don't have your lance anymore) is more effective with a longer blade than a shorter one.

[Agraes]

I agree with Robert. A spatha is quite effective in very close combat from my own experience.

In your area, maybe look for hunnish short swords?

[M. Val. Naso]

I have to bow before you. I just can't understand the sudden disappearance of daggers.

"Wann verschwand der Dolch vom römischen Militärgürtel?" would be a good thing to educate myself from...I'm gonna do that...though german knowledge wouldn't be a disadvantage

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I don't believe we have any evidence of "Hunnic" swords do we? I know the Romans occasionally refered to a "Gladius Hunniscus" but this term was applied to sabres in the 7th century or so.

[Agraes]

There seems to be a separate tradition of swords in the steppes.

Here a reproduction of a sarmatian sword by my friend Olivier from the Foederati:


Here a reproduction of a 5th century hunnic dagger:
http://schnucks0.free.fr/forum/viewtopic...=12&t=1886

I need to find a few more pictures. Ill do when I'm home.

I thought about those pieces of equipment as Pannonia came early in contact with the Huns.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Here's a couple of images of huns I've rounded up over the years:

The first is Atilla and Germano-Huns, 5th century
The second is 5th-Century Huns and a German
EDIT: 3rd Image didn't upload.

I think they're both by Angus Mcbride

[Alanus]

Good "point," Martin

Fact is "gladius" just meant "sword," not even "short sword." When Tacitus described long swords used by Roxolani, he called them simply "gladii."

Possibly, the passage in Vegetius was originally "Sammy Spatha," a short friend of his who walked on stilts. :dizzy:

[Alanus]

I wouldn't put much faith in McBride's "squat" little Huns with "Mongoloid" features. By the time the Xiong-nu reached Europe, now as "Huns," they probably were an admixture of physical traits. Their swords were hardly any different than the Gothic or late Sarmatian ones, and might be best described as "Migration era." Even the Alemanni and Franks borrowed the design, and it extended (with its straight grip-check) into the medieval period as the "cruxiform" sword. ;-)

back to Benjamin,

That's a damned nice sword! :woot:

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I wouldn't put much faith in McBride's "squat" little Huns with "Mongoloid" features. By the time the Xiong-nu reached Europe, now as "Huns," they probably were an admixture of physical traits. Their swords were hardly any different than the Gothic or late Sarmatian ones, and might be best described as "Migration era." Even the Alemanni and Franks borrowed the design, and it extended (with its straight grip-check) into the medieval period as the "cruxiform" sword. ;-)

back to Benjamin,

That's a damned nice sword! :woot:

I agree, I believe the Huns were the culmination of Xiongnu and Turks, the latter being the dominant trait, who moved west and then mixed with Germanics and Finno-Ugrian peoples.

Also, "Sammy Spatha" wouldn't work as that name didn't come around until 1000 years later or so...

[XorX]

That`s a really nice sword!
It`s the typical eastern form of migration-period spatha from which quite many have been found in eastern europe (especially hungary and romania). The blades are a bit different from the western type: mostly very long, narrow with lens-or diamond-cross-section and a very long tang. The blade-design was not copied in the west but the design of the crossguard and handle were.

[koechlyruestow]

You can find many drawings of Hunnic swords in István Bóna's Das Hunnenreich. They are basically two types of long swords: Western Iranian swords with a short hilt (the swordman held his indexfinger of the quillon of his sword in an Italian grip) and Eastern Iranian swords with a long hilt (meant to be held in something closer to a pistol grip). The latter sword is the type owned by your friend Oliver. All these swords seem to have had a wrist strap attached to the hilt, with a large decorative bead of semi-precious stone and/or precious metal.

The short swords in this book are also of two basic types: a long, single-edged knife of Eastern Iranian type and a double-edged short sword of a more ancient type, but at that time apparently extinct in Central Asia and limited to the Middle East.

In the decoration of weapons and other items too, Sasanian influence is marked.

[Alanus]

That`s a really nice sword!
It`s the typical eastern form of migration-period spatha from which quite many have been found in eastern europe (especially hungary and romania). The blades are a bit different from the western type: mostly very long, narrow with lens-or diamond-cross-section and a very long tang. The blade-design was not copied in the west but the design of the crossguard and handle were.

That's true. The blade design disappeared in the west... which I think was a shame. But the grip check (cross guard) just kept being lengthened into the medieval cruxiform. (a narrow blade is "faster" and less tiring. In that respect, the Asians had a better, quicker, weapon. The Europeans were heavily into macho-ism, where the blade could be likened to a phallus. Just my thought, based on my inability to handle big and burly swords.) :dizzy: