Aitor Alert! Manuballista found!

[Robert]

Hmm, strange to use sinew, given the fact that it loses it's strength when damp or wet. As flax (linen), (horse)hair and hemp rope do not suffer this problem, in the view of reliability would not these materials give a more solid operating basis when trying to shoot the shit out of the goonies? :roll: On a misty morning in Germania Inferior, I would know where to place my money when the barbarian hordes rolled in ........

[AuxArcher]

Robert, sinew is such an exceptionally elastic material, even with moisture degrading it's usability, I reckon it still beats other rope materials. I may be wrong here, and if so, will happily admit to it.

[Crispvs]

I think the point of sinew is that it can be stretched considerably without breaking and still return to its normal size.

On the matter of dampness, I have often noticed that the springs of the catapultas shown on Trajan's column appear to be covered by cylindrical casings. Could these be to protect the sinews from damp?

In addition, I feel quite sure that when they were not in use catapults probably had waterproofs goatskin covers to keep them safe from becoming wet. Such a cover could remain on the machine until immediately before it was necessary to actually use it. They covered shields after all. How much more would they have been inclined to protect a catapult which must have cost several times as much in terms of both money and time to construct?

Crispvs

[D B Campbell]

... there is at least one account from the ancient world of women in a besieged town donating their hair so that it could be spun into cord to use for catupult springs ...

You're right, Crispvs -- there are several examples.
The one that "springs" to mind (sorry :oops: ) is Caesar, BCiv. 3.9: in 48 BC, the inhabitants of Salonae, besieged by Pompey's general M. Octavius, "equipped their catapults by cutting off the hair of all the women" (praesectis omnium mulierum crinibus tormenta effecerunt).

The "technical" authors (Heron, Vitruvius) prefer sinew rope for the springs, but they indicate that rope made of hair ("particularly women's"; Vitr., De arch. 10.11.2) could be used (e.g. Veg., Mil. 4.9). In the 1900s, Schramm was unable to manufacture sinew cord, so he sprung his catapults with horsehair rope.

[Robert]

I suppose a tightly woven bundle of sinew would be more resistant to moisture. The outer layer may loose strength, but the inner layers are well protected within the bundle. I will concede this point and withdraw my earlier remark. Still, common flax rope still packs a lot of wollup and is much easier to get!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, Crispus has a good point, in that they would have covered the weapons to keep moisture off, humidity would be another factor tho'!

How long does sinew last, or does it remain elastic until wrecked?

[D B Campbell]

I have absolutely no practical experience of sinew (it seems that few people have!), so all of my remarks are theoretical.

Hmm, strange to use sinew, given the fact that it loses it's strength when damp or wet.

Philon says much the same as you, Robert. He praises the experimental bronze-spring catapult because it remains unaffected by dampness. "When sinew springs are wet or broken, machines cannot avoid detrimental effects. Often even machines kept with every precaution in covered places deteriorate considerably through atmospheric changes" (Philon, Bel. 72, trans. Marsden, adapted).

Cow sinew would be cheap, in fact may be free from my friendly wholesale butcher. I have heard that cow sinew is a bit greasy and not that ideal for backing bows or strings, but for rope, maybe it would be fine.

Heron actually praises bull sinew, Dane (also the tendon in deer's feet). The only sort he deplores is pig, which he says is useless.
I was under the impression that manufacturing sinew rope was laborious, fiddly and messy. Let us know how you get on!

[Paullus Scipio]

...the final siege of Carthage was another famous occasion when catapults were powered by women's hair, but it does seem this was a last resort.

[AuxArcher]

Heron actually praises bull sinew, Dane (also the tendon in deer's feet). The only sort he deplores is pig, which he says is useless.
I was under the impression that manufacturing sinew rope was laborious, fiddly and messy. Let us know how you get on! [/quote]

Here is the quick and sloppy method for preparing sinew.

First, get an animal leg! Use your handy knive to extract the leg tendon.

Or, you order it from a supplier, already dried. You have to pound the heck out of the tendon, and you can remove the outer shell pretty soon. You continue to pound the tendon, seperating out the fibers. At that point, it is just like making a primative string from, say, flax or dogbane. You do the old reverse twisting routine, and thus build up to the rope diameter you wish for. Clearly, it will take a lot of sinew to make enough rope for any seige engine of any size. And I wonder, is there a great number of women out there willing to give up thier hair for ropes? I doubt it,

If you have never handled dried sinew bundles, it is very similar to a dog chew. Very tough, so the pounding is a decent workout. Deer sinew is a lovely golden shade, very pretty stuff. I have a bunch of it out in my workshop, for the composite Roman bow I'm building, so for a manuballista, I'll pay a call to some local butchers and also contact slaughter houses.

A few other thoughts about sinew and moisture. Bows have to be protected from moisture, and one traditional method is to cover the sinew with snake skin or bark, which is the way traditional Korean composite bows are made (specifically, birch bark soaked for a year in salt water). So, I can see the logic in some sort of covering for the spring bundles until just before battle or practice.

Also, insects and other critters, including dogs, love to eat this stuff, so it has to be protected from that fate.

Not being a biologist or medical type, I wonder why sinew still in an animal works, since it is pretty wet in there? Kind of a gross thought, eh?

[P. Clodius Secundus]

AuxArcher\\n[quote]Also, insects and other critters, including dogs, love to eat this stuff, so it has to be protected from that fate. quote]

Sorry Optio, no range today. I have to take ballista #2 to the direct support shop. The centurions mastiff ate the left spring and buried the arm some where along the south wall. :lol:

[Roy]

OK, let's for the sake of the argument asume that a well trained crew could get off 4 bolts a minute. 5 for all I care. How many engines would you require to get of a decent long range barage? Moving the troops forward the distance you can cover in 15 seconds striding in formation(about 20 yards or meters) would really change the aim. With only 5 shots (the ultimate max as far as I am conserned) 100 meters will have been covered. The "rabble" being refered to was nowhere near as thick as we would like to presume. Yes, there was a technological gap when faced with artillary, but let's not forget these tribes were pretty fierce fighters. What really killed them was trying to penetrate a shieldwall of highly diciplined troops. The Romans suffered quite a few defiets when forced to do battle on the conditions impossed by their adversaries (when they could not opperate in a chosen field using trained formations). Using artillary for long range suppresive fire seems unlogical for torsion weapons due to firing rate (forgive me for sounding like Spock ).

Say, the town you're in is being besieged by a single legion (which has about 60 of these artillery pieces).
Would you dare to stick your head out over the wall, knowing that if you do so several of these highly accurate things will immediately be aimed at you? :wink:

Rather good surpressive fire I'd say, especially in combination with archers and slingers.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

They were used to'clear the walls of defenders' after all!

Who say's it was by killing them all!

[AuxArcher]

Also, insects and other critters, including dogs, love to eat this stuff, so it has to be protected from that fate. quote]

Sorry Optio, no range today. I have to take ballista #2 to the direct support shop. The centurions mastiff ate the left spring and buried the arm some where along the south wall. :lol:

That is very funny, man.

[Robert]

Salve Roy,

My observation was based on the use of torsion weapons as defence (we started of the tread more or less agreeing on the manuballista most idealy used on walls and ships) or offense in a battlefield situation, that is, neither of the armies in a fortified position. Your comment adresses the siege role, where the ballista is in a fixed position as a siege weapon firing into a stationary target with defenders on the walls. Totaly different ballgame and yes, I would hide behing any object thick enough to stop a bolt. I would feel very suppressed! Being in a stationary position on the recieving end of a 60 odd enginge barrage could really ruin your day :lol:

[Eleatic Guest]

Technische Untersuchungen römischer Reiterhelme

On p. 6 the authors give a brief account of a shooting test with a Roman torsion crossbow at a Roman knight mask.