Question regarding what is now southern Poland

[Redguru]

What are the tribes that would have been in the region of Poland near Krakow around the time of Augustus? Germanics, Gothones, Venedians?

[Redguru]

Ptolemy scantly mentions the Rugiclei along the Vistula in his "Geography" Book II, Chapter 10 (taken from the web translation version at the university of Chicago). But I can't find much other reference to the region.

[Nathan Ross]

Tacitus, in Germania, gives the Lugii or Lygians as inhabitants of this approximate area. I believe Strabo also mentions them at an earlier date, and it's probably fairly to safe to say they were around that region in Augustan times. In book 67 of Cassius Dio, the Lugii send envoys to Rome asking Domitian for Roman help against an invasion of Suebi from the west - Domitian refused to send regular troops, but instead offered a hundred horsemen of the Roman lower nobility (equites)! Whether these men actually went to help the Lugii or not isn't clear, but geography and the lack of any mention elsewhere makes it perhaps unlikely. Not much else is known about the Lugii themselves, as far as I know, but with their various alliances and enmities with surrounding Germanic people (Suebi, Marcomanni), it's probable they too were Germanics.

Here's a detailed map of Europe c. Hadrian, giving the assumed positions of various tribes, including the Lugii, based it would appear on Tacitus and Strabo:

[url:1ye5yxk6]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Roman_Empire_125.svg[/url]

Hope that helps - N Ross

[Redguru]

Thank you, Nathan. It seems that Archaeology and Ancient History are in relative infancy in Poland and the Czech Republic.

[Alanus]

From Tacitus we learn that the Goths had already split into two tribes-- the Gotones and Gothini-- while passing through Poland in the period you're interested in. Herwig Wolfram states that they followed the river Vistuala into Ukranine (and probably Moldova). These two tribes, once just one, were East Germans; and I would not be surprised that early Vandals (perhaps not yet by that name) would have been in the region.

[Komanos]

Their archaeology is not lacking, and their history is generally constrained by what can be known. The Przeworsk culture was in late Phase A3 or early B1 during the Augustan period, and has been at times connected with the Lugii and later the Vandals. The Tyniec group may still have been around at that point in time in the vicinity of Krakow, but it was a limited Celtic population and may have been absorbed into other populations by that time. There is quite a lot published on Przeworsk archaeology, and I'll just point out that some of the most famous examples of late La Tene swords, shield bosses, and helmets actually come from Przeworsk warrior burials.

[Alanus]

Somewhere in today's Poland, there is an entire "reproduction" of an Iron Age fort next to a lake. This "museum" appears very similar to Celtic hillforts, even though it's on level ground. Wish I could remember the name and where it is. :oops:

[Arminius Primus]

Ave Fratres,

Have always been fascinated by languages, and how actual bits and pieces of history and culture are preserved in words , and grammar. The Old Ukrainian word for people is "Lyudii" (My best approximation in Latin Characters) and here in my part of the Balkans, "Lyugii" (same approximation). Maybe those "People" were Slavs or what some researchers call proto slavs, identical to Celtic culture but with a different language?? I am not an expert but this might be another research thread for you.

Regards from a very warm Balkans, Arminius Primus, aka Al

[Alanus]

The Slavs/Scaveni did enter the Balkans at a late date, sometime after it was abandoned by the Goths and Alans. But the Slavs were never akin in culture to the Celts/Keltoi. The nearest cultures to the Celts were the Alans and Goths, sharing a perceived progenitor and having similarities in language, social, and military aspects.

The reproduction fort-museum in Poland, mentioned above, probably was Celtic or proto-Celtic. The proto-Celts were also in Rumania about 800 BC. In Poland, they must have preceeded the Goths, but they were still there when the Goths migrated through the area on their way to the Black Sea.

[Redguru]

Thanks, all, for the replies. As an American of Polish heritage I was woefully ignorant of the Ancient History of our family's progenitors.