peloponesian impression

[Andy]

Tim Everson "Warfare in Ancient Greece" points out that the aspis bowl was deepening during the peloponesian war period, greaves may not have been worn by all hoplites, and bronze spear heads were in use. What is the consensus on this? Is this a reliable source?

He also mentions that the Corinthian had ear holes with hinged cheeck guards. Does anybody have an image of this? I have a deepeeka corinthian and a conversion could be possible.

[hoplite14gr]

Wellocome,

Most people belive that bronze spearheads stopped being used by the end of the 6th century B.C.
The most well preserved bronze spear points are from the Excavation of the British Archaological School in Athens,
done at the temple of Zeus Messapaios. Currently in the British Museum.
Yet at the Nemea Museum there are remnants of bronze spear points dated 5th century which means that at least some hoplites had carried them even at the begining of the 2nd Peloponessian War.

Also keep in mind that weapons were inherited. There is not way to prove that the heir of a middle class proprty would not carry his father's or even grand-father's weapons - lets say at 415 B.C.
Some times at extreme emergency city state militias were hastily armed with Temple votive offferings.
(5th century hoplite with 7th century gear - not unlikely!)

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

Tim Everson "Warfare in Ancient Greece" points out that the aspis bowl was deepening during the peloponesian war period

I'm not sure where this started, perhaps Blyth, but I doubt it. See below for some "deep" aspides from earlier than the 5th c. I think it has more to do with how artists portrayed shields than the way shields actually looked.

Blyth also suggested that the difference might be because early shields were turned on a lathe, to which he attributed the origin of the round shape, and later shields were built of strips of wood (like a scutum). I think the progression was exactly the oposite, with the ancestral shield make of wicker, early aspises built up of strips as seems to be shown on the chigi vase and others, and later aspides turned on a lathe. Both of these techniques seem ot have been used in the later period.

If there is any progression it is not in depth of the bowl, but in the slope of the dome of the shield, with later shields showing an abrupt steepened "shoulder" section just prior to the rim. But even this is tenuous and probably impossible to date.

[Kineas]

The well known "Achilles tending a wounded Patrokles" Tondo (illustration is on several other threads) shows Patrokles sitting on his aspis. The depth is obvious and should go a long way to showing that their existed a deep aspis in 500BC. It's a useful piece of evidence as there's no reason whatsoever for the artist to have made the bowl deeper--an argument that doesn't satisfy me to begin with, but have it as you will...

I'm with Paul that the progression as almost certainly from "lathe" or boat hull construction to "lathed" or turned on a wheel,and I'm beginning to wonder if the whole "lathed" theory is based on mis-translation of German descriptions of "lath" meaning thin boards laid up together!

I mention this because none of the woods mentioned for the aspis would do very well on a wheel. The best turner I know, Erv Tschanz of Rochester, NY, who turns wet elm to very fine tolerances, says that wet woods couldn't be guaranteed to hold their form in the size of an aspis and dry would fracture. But he';s going to try a couple this fall, so I'll report back.

As a final note, I'd now hazard a guess that the early Boeotian and the early Aspis shapes are both shapes that can be made in rawhide and keep their shape on a heavy frame with wood internal strapping that would look much like the base of a basket. I'll be collectign ash splits this weekend for a demo.

[PMBardunias]

Christian, along the lines of your mentioning internal supports, perhaps one of our German members can translate this better than the pitiful online translator I used. Its from Kunze's book :

Bei schild 3 eichneten sich in de ersetzen reste der unterlage zwei in Gegensinn gekruemmte vierkantige hoelzerne Staebe klar ab, die in der Mitte der Woelbung, wo die boegen einander nahe kommen, durch schraege Hoelzer verstrebt waren. Auf die glieche Holzkonstruktion fuehren zwei entsprechende bogenfoermige Spuren auf der Innenseite von schild 7, die sich aehnlich auch bei 6 finden. Heir scheint sogar der sich verbreiternde Riss, der quer ueber die woelbung des beschlages hinweggeht mit dem hoelzernen Stabwerk der Unterlage in Zusammerenhang zu stehen: denn seine seitliche Begrenzung folgt fast durchweg der verlauf der gebogenen Holzstaebe. Die Beobachtungen reichen noch nicht aus, um von der technischen Herstellung der hoelzernen Schildunterlage ein Voellig klares Bild zu geben. Soviel ist jedoch sicher, dass schon im Interesse der Festikeit auf technisch vollendete Zusammenfuegung des Holzes der grosste wert gelegt wurde.

Here's the poor/incomplete translation:

With shield 3 eichneten to themselves in de rests(remainders) of the document replace for two square wooden rods bent in countersense clearly from which come close in the middle of the curvature where they would bend each other, were struted by oblique wood. On the glieche timber construction lead two appropriate arched traces on the inside of shield 7 which are found similarly also with 6. Heir even the widening tear appears, crosswise about the curvature of the fitting passes with the wooden rod work of the document in Zusammerenhang to stand: since his(its) lateral limitation follows almost entirely him run of the bent wood rods. The observations are not sufficient yet to give a completely clear picture from the technical production of the wooden shield document. However, so much is sure(safe) that already in the interest the Festikeit was attached importance to technically perfect joining of the wood biggest.

[M. Demetrius]

I confirm that translation to be pretty rough. I don't understand it, either.

[PMBardunias]

The german passage I quoted was translated for us by Martin Moser on this site:

On shield 3 on the decomposited remains of the lower layer there clearly are traces of two wooden staves with a tetragonal cross-section that a curved towards each other, and which were struted (fixed) by angular pieces of wood in the center of the camber/concavity, where those curves are closest to each other. The same wooden construction is implied by two likewise curved traces on the inside of shield 7, which can also be found similarily on shield 6. Here also the widening gap/crack running diagonally over the camber/concavity of the fitting seems to be associated with the wooden struting/framework of the lower layer: its lateral boundary follows almost completely the outline of the wooden staves. The observations are not yet sufficient to yield a absolutely clear picture of the technical production process of the wooden lower/base layer of the shield. It is certain, however, that with respect to stability alone a technically perfect joining of the wood was given the utmost importance.