Bronze lorica segmentata?

[FlaviusCrispus]

Avete, amici!<br>
<br>
Dr. Raffaele D'Amato, who, I believe is a friend of Graham Sumner's, asserted a while back that all or part of a bronze lorica segmenta was found in excavations at Nova, Bulgaria. This was supposedly published in the Bulgarian archaeological journal for 1999. I recently was able to look at a copy of this publication and found no reference to any bronze loricae (at least no images or drawings of anything that looked like one, and my Bulgarian friend could find no reference in the text to it). Do I have the wrong edition, or is it some other publication I am trying to locate?<br>
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Also, I would have thought Mike Bishop would have heard about or referred to such a find in his "Lorica Segmentata" volumes, which went to press at least a year after these supposed finds were published. Mike, if you're out there, have you heard about any bronze loricae being found in Bulgaria or elsewhere?<br>
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I would have thought that such a find (bronze, after all, is likely to survive in much better condition than any iron object) would have created quite a ripple through the Roman armor / archaeology fraternity, which, after all, got very excited about the Kalkriese breastplate! But I've only seen a few rather cryptic mentions and heard a couple of rumors (i.e. that the lorica was "virtually complete and in spectacular condition"). Is this find real, and if so, why haven't we heard more about it?<br>
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Dave Michaels / T. Flavius Crispus<br>
Leg VI VPF<br>
CA, USA<br>
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<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/12/05 6:23 am<br></i>

[mcbishop]

<em>Dr. Raffaele D'Amato, who, I believe is a friend of Graham Sumner's, asserted a while back that all or part of a bronze lorica segmenta was found in excavations at Nova, Bulgaria. This was supposedly published in the Bulgarian archaeological journal for 1999. I recently was able to look at a copy of this publication and found no reference to any bronze loricae (at least no images or drawings of anything that looked like one, and my Bulgarian friend could find no reference in the text to it). Do I have the wrong edition, or is it some other publication I am trying to locate?</em><br>
<br>
This is one of those little mythlets that has grown to astonishing proportions in a comparatively short time. The Polish-Bulgarian excavations at Svishtov-<em>Novae</em> have produced a mountain of interesting material and much of it is published in the journal <em>Novensia</em> produced by Warsaw University. Volume 12 (2000) includes some lorica seg finds on pp.74-9 and Tabl.VIII-X, the pieces on VIII-IX all apparently from one location.<br>
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Alongside the usual hinges, buckles and such like, there are small pieces of 'bronze' plate, most of them with small round flat-headed rivets. The line drawings are very basic but to me they look like segmental armguard plates, like the examples from Newstead and Corbridge, but to be sure I would need to see them.<br>
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So I'm afraid that complete bronze lorica seg looks a lot like a handful of fittings (2 lobate hinges, 2 tie loops, a hinged strap fitting, and a hingeless buckle) and some bits (15 pieces) of armguard... a bit like the fisherman's 'one that got away' it has just grown with the telling!<br>
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Mike Bishop <p></p><i></i>

[FlaviusCrispus]

Thanks, Mike! I'd hoped you'd have some insights into this mystery, and once again, you've come through!<br>
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Now that we've laid this mythlet to rest, next, the supposed "leather lorica" from Numantia!<br>
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While we're on the topic of loricae made from materials other than bronze... has anyone given thought to the outfits worn by charioteers in a number of mosaics, wall paintings and the like? They definitely have a girth section that at least superficially resembles that of a lorica seg. Is there any discussion of this garment in the ancient literature, and do we have a name for it? Presumably, this "charioteer's lorica" would be made of leather or layered fabric, but would it have been articulated in the same fashion as a lorica seg-- i.e. with internal leathers, or would leather bands simply have been fastened directly to one another? Could this fashion have arisen in imitation of the military lorica segment look?<br>
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Just stirring the pot a bit.<br>
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Dave Michaels / T. Flavius Crispus <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/12/05 2:36 am<br></i>

[Ebusitanus]

Numantia is 150 BC and after that a sad dwarfed village alongside a roman road. So since there was no military base in this village after its final demise in 150 BC, you do really think there was something even remotely in design close to a Segmentata in 150 BC? I was at the Numantine museum just three weeks ago and of course that piece was not on display but if it even exists and would be displayed we would rather find out that it could have been a big number of things from Submarillis to even Celtiberian armor of some sort. <p></p><i></i>

[mcbishop]

<em>Now that we've laid this mythlet to rest, next, the supposed "leather lorica" from Numantia!</em><br>
<br>
As Aitor pointed out in the appropriate thread, the conditions for its survival do not really exist at Numantia, never mind the heterodox dating.<br>
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<em>While we're on the topic of loricae made from materials other than bronze... has anyone given thought to the outfits worn by charioteers in a number of mosaics, wall paintings and the like?</em><br>
<br>
They look more like a garment of padded strapping, presumably with a similar function to modern equestrian body-protectors, than any form of leather strip armour. I know of no horse rider who would feel happy wearing just thin strips of leather when their mount got stroppy (which horses seem to do rather too much for my liking).<br>
<br>
Mike Bishop <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

"While we're on the topic of loricae made from materials other than bronze... has anyone given thought to the outfits worn by charioteers in a number of mosaics, wall paintings and the like?<br>
<br>
They look more like a garment of padded strapping, presumably with a similar function to modern equestrian body-protectors, than any form of leather strip armour. I know of no horse rider who would feel happy wearing just thin strips of leather when their mount got stroppy (which horses seem to do rather too much for my liking)."<br>
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Could this be a possible design for the subarmalis? <img src="http://www.getty.edu/artsednet/images/Trajan/horsemos-l.jpeg" style="border:0;"/> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=paulusbrittanicus>Paulus Brittanicus</A> at: 2/12/05 6:14 pm<br></i>

[derek forrest]

Graham has asked me to post this<br>
Derek<br>
The description of Bronze Lorica Segmentata is in Archeologia Bulgarica 1-1999 by Vagalinsky between pages 27-29. The following translation from the original German is from page 28<br>
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“……in the lower hole near the house have been found numerous fragments of Bronze plates, hinges and hooks. The pieces of thin bronze plate, 0.001m thick, are the most numerous. They are fastened together by small nails with flat caps. These are parts of body armour. The fastening places are the best preserved, because they are the thickest. Also two hinges have been preserved, a simple hinge, as well as two small hooks. It is possible that we are in front of preserved parts of a lorica segmentata, i.e. a segmental cuirass, which corresponds to the specimen classified by Robinson as Corbridge A, where a lot of hinges and hooks were used to fasten the single parts.<br>
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When all the pieces are connected together, we have the external impression of a cuirass of this type. The hinges for the breast and the four hooks in bronze, which have been preserved, can support the theory that we are in the presence of the segmented part of the shoulder protection and two parts of the torso. These parts in our specimen were damaged and stored there for repair. In that sense we can explain the presence of the nails with the flat caps……â€ÂÂ

[derek forrest]

From Graham<br>
Just read your post. You forgot to mention that the reply was from RaffaeleD'Amato not me! <p></p><i></i>

[FlaviusCrispus]

Graham, Dr. D/Amato et al:<br>
<br>
I, for one, would be very interested in seeing a bronze lorica segmentata, which is why I posted this in the first place. I can't, on the surface, think of why such a thing would not exist. Yet until now, despite bronze having far superior survival characteristics than iron, the only bronze (more properly, orichalcum) lorica fragments we have come across are hinges, buckles, bosses, hooks, rivets, girth loops and the like. We have found entire iron plates edged in brass (Kalkriese), but no brass plates that can be positively identified to have come from a lorica seg, as opposed to a manica or thigh defense.<br>
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That is why I was very curious to find the source for your postings about a bronze lorica seg having been found in Bulgaria, and why I went so far as to try to track down the volume you identified as the source for this report. I shall have to have another look at the journal, for I do not recall having come across any references like the one you cite. Perhaps it is a different publication.<br>
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However, as per Mike Bishop's posting above, it seems quite possible that the identification of these plate fragments as being from a lorica segmentata, as opposed to from the well-documented manica (which is, after all, another form of segmented armor), is premature. Even the passage you quoted, which refers to the parts being held together with "small nails with flat caps," sounds more like a description of a manica than a lorica. The author also does not insist that this is a lorica segmentata, but only states it is "possible," and that this is the "impression" one gets from seeing the pieces compressed together. Perhaps we might have to wait for another day for difinitive proof of an all-cuprite alloy lorica segmentata.<br>
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Dr. D'Amato, there is really no reason to demean people on this list as believing Roman soldiers were identical robots. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are all striving, each in our own way, to discover the many ways in which the Roman soldier attired and equipped himself.<br>
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T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels<br>
Leg VI VPF<br>
CA, USA <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/15/05 9:36 pm<br></i>

[Anonymous]

What is the likelihood that wealthier soldiers would wear plate lorica? All the depictions I'm aware of don't show anyone except the lower ranks wearing this armour. Officers and centurios from the same time period are usually wearing mail. If plate lorica was only worn by those who could not afford something "better" (more comfortable, more robust, etc.) then why would a bronze (more expensive) version have been made? If a soldier could afford a bronze segmentata then it is likely that he could afford to buy mail. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielraymondhoward>Daniel Raymond Howard</A> at: 2/16/05 12:24 am<br></i>

[Anonymous]

"The Romans used iron, bronze, felt, horn, leather and linen armour! The ancient sources are all very clear about this."<br>
Felt and linen?<br>
Presumably by linen you refer to a hoplite style linothorax? As for felt, the only references I have seen talk about felt being used as the subarmalis/ thoromacus/ arming cap under armour, not as armour itself. And I'm not sure how confident I would feel facing Teutonic hordes wearing just my trusty felt lorica.....<br>
Sources, please?<br>
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<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=paulusbrittanicus>Paulus Brittanicus</A> at: 2/16/05 6:12 am<br></i>

[Anonymous]

Me too. If the sources are "very clear about this" I'd like to see a few citations. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielraymondhoward>Daniel Raymond Howard</A> at: 2/16/05 7:07 am<br></i>

[FlaviusCrispus]

Ave, amici!<br>
<br>
Dr. D'Amato is correct that there are passages in, I believe, Cassius Dio and the Historia Augusta which refer to the emperor Caracalla forming a special armored phalanx in imitation of Alexander the Great, and that these men wore linen cuirasses (and leather helmets?). There is also the famous "crocodile armor" in the British Museum, made from crocodile hyde (though there is some thought that this might be ceremonial costume for some kind religious rite). The Sarmatians certainly used horn scales for horse bards, and perhaps body armor, and may have taken this with them when they entered Roman service. I'm not sure about felt being mentioned as actual armor.<br>
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T. Flavius Crispus / Dave Michaels<br>
Leg VI VPF<br>
CA, USA <p></p><i></i>

[FlaviusCrispus]

Here's a description of Caracalla's Macedonian Phalanx, as per Cassius Dio (Book LXXVIII, p. 293):<br>
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"He (Caracalla) organized a phalanx, composed entirely of Macedonians, sixteen thousand strong, named it "Alexander's Phalanx," and equipped it with the arms that warriors had used in his day; these consisted of a helmet of raw ox-hide, a three-ply linen breastplate, a bronze shield, long pike, short spear, high boots, and sword."<br>
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Graham Sumner illustrates one of these "Roman phalangites" on plate C of his "Roman Military Clothing Vol. 2, AD 200-400."<br>
<br>
T. Flavius Crispus<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

What is meant by 3-ply linen? Using only three layers would not offer any protection. Does it mean "3-piece" linen cuirass? <p></p><i></i>