Cataphract, Clibanarii, whatever, against Infantry

[Virilis]

If I remember correctly Ammianus information of the Strassbourg battle is considered to be second hand, he was in the east at the time?

[M. Demetrius]

nor of the supposed manner of the horses being stabbed by germanic troop mingling with the Roman cavalry. that may have occurred, but Ammianus does not describe it.

IIRC, there is an account of exactly that in Caesar's Gallic Wars. If you need it, I'll see if I can dredge up the ref for you.

[Aulus Perrinius]

nor of the supposed manner of the horses being stabbed by germanic troop mingling with the Roman cavalry. that may have occurred, but Ammianus does not describe it.

IIRC, there is an account of exactly that in Caesar's Gallic Wars. If you need it, I'll see if I can dredge up the ref for you.

IIRC the Germans did that at Carrhae as well

[Nicholas Gaukroger]

Hi Nik,

A bit late, this reply, but I've been off line for some time.. :|

Been a while since I was here as well, so my apologies for my delay.

I asume that you are not disputing the mixing of infantry and cavalry

No, I wasn't. I disputed your claim that "the Romans had 2 units of Cataphracts, who, infamously, were defeated by German troops getting in amoung them and stabbing the horses in their unprotected belllies". I've read no evidence of two units being defeated (I'll get back to that later), nor of the supposed manner of the horses being stabbed by germanic troop mingling with the Roman cavalry. that may have occurred, but Ammianus does not describe it.

Somebody else made the 2 units claim not me - but apologies if I misunderstood you point.

However, on the stabbing beneath the armour Ammianus does say:

" whereas the infantry soldier in the very hottest of the fight, when nothing is apt to be guarded against except what is straight before one, can creep about low and unseen, and by piercing a horse's side throw its unsuspecting rider headlong, whereupon he can be slain with little trouble.!"

Now this isn't in the part where he describes combat, however, he clearly sees it as being a reason for having light infantry intermingled which may well mean it is reasonable to assume this is what happened even if not explicitly stated.

"Scattered in whatever direction they could" and "looking for nothing except safety in fligt" is rather more than "wavered" IMO.

Further down (42) it is claimed that the Germans defeated and scattered 'the cavalry', but whether this is the left wing cavalry or the right (or both) remains unclear,

Yes, indeed that's what Ammianus writes. But Ammianus also writes that the cavalry was stopped by Julian, and that they rejoined the fight. Also, a slightly injured commander suddenly dies in battle - how did this happen if he was already gone?
This is in direct contradiction with what Ammianis wrote before, and hence we have to disbelieve one or the other of his statements. I've chosen to to read the one about the 'scattering cavarly' as the overreaction, since ancient cavalry in flight usually stops when the horses get tired - i have yet to recall a battle where they actually rejoin the fight.

The commander was injured before the flight, surely? As is said here:


"38 Now that had happened for the reason that while the order of their lines was being re-established, the cavalry in coat-of?mail, seeing their leader slightly wounded and one of their companions slipping over the neck of his horse, which had collapsed under the weight of his armour, scattered in whatever direction they could; the cavalry would have caused complete confusion by trampling the infantry underfoot, had not the latter, who were packed close together and intertwined one with the other, held their ground without stirring. So, when Caesar had seen from a distance that the cavalry were looking for nothing except safety in flight, he spurred on his horse and held them back like a kind of barrier."

I think this clearly has the commander being injured, this causes the flight and on seeing thei Julian rushes over to try and stop them running further.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

I think Sander van Dorst wrote his final thesis on this matter at Univ in Leiden, dont know how to contact him though, he seems vanished...

M.VIB.M.