Spartans in white? Surely not!

[Ghostmojo]

I'm intrigued by one rather anorakish aspect to Spartan military dress (of any period) which is - would they really wear anything white in colour?

I remember reading somewhere they had an aversion to the colour white, which they considered to be suitable only for women to wear (no disrespect intended to ladies here or back then). Also having taken great pains to wear crimson tunics, capes etc. which hid the blood in battle - would they really go and spoil the effect by wearing a white linen cuirass on top? Really?!!! I rather think not. There are some otherwise very nice pieces of artwork on this forum (and elsewhere) which depict this particular paradox. My own view is that the Spartans would have dyed their stiffened linen armour a more suitable colour (like red/crimson/scarlet or brown or black) or wore something else altogether.

However, I am always interested in others opinions. Perhaps somebody could shed some alternate views on this one?

[Matthew Amt]

Well, aside from the fact that we are less and less convinced that the thing formerly known as a linothorax was really linen, it's a piece of armor, not clothing. So it didn't have any sort of feminine ambience, even if it had been white (and it was probably yellowish or buff-colored).

There has also been some debate about whether it was the cloak or the tunic which was traditionally red, and I honestly don't recall if a firm conclusion was reached on that point!

A traditional preference for one color does not necessarily mean an abhorrence of any other color! Unless there is a historic reference to that effect, of course.

Khaire,

Matthew

[hoplite14gr]

The problem coms mostly from our views.
The Talthybiadae clan were descendants of the legentary Taltlybios-herald of Menelaos-
Heralds were also priests of Hermes. I can imagine them in white chiton - the hieratic colour.
They might carry though the red cloack - color of Ares in campaign.

Kind regards

[Ghostmojo]

I must dig out the quote that mentions the traditional distaste for white. I wonder if it was from the lawgiver Lykourgos or even the poet Tyrtaios? I know I read it somewhere.

[Aulus Perrinius]

Also red doesn't hide bloodstains they just show as black

[hoplite14gr]

Agree with you Tomas.
It just people some times like to replicate what sounds nice.

Kind regards

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I cannot help but feel the spartans wore red for the same reason the Roman used red on vexellums ets, it represented the blood of Ares / Mars? Maybe, not so much to cover the bloodstains...

[Phalanx300]

Might be because its a violent colour, there was a test where they concluded that the colour red is intimidating. Hiding blood might also have been a reason. These reasons I think was why the Spartans went slightly uniform with them selecting crimson red as a colour.

Their dislike of white might possibly also come from the Argives who were known for their white shields and with who they had a big rivalry?

I also think its quite likely that the Spartans would colour their linothorax, it isn't impossible and white linothorax would break up the red uniformity.

[Ghostmojo]

Here's a lively - if somewhat variable discussion on the same point - with reference to ancient authors being tossed about here and there (and even The Great Rhetra):

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=49809

Plus did anybody know about this yahoo group? I've only just stumbled upon it whilst googling around:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sparta/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sparta/message/137 (discussing our very own comments)

I might join up!!! Also thanks to GJC and P300 who seem to be following my own reasoning 8)

[Lýsandros]

I am not sure how much can I trust this, but I remember that Nick Secunda stated in the Osprey book The Spartan Army that spartan soldiers only used bronze armour - be it the old bell cuirass from the archaic period or muscular ciurass from the classical period (or even no cuirass at all later during the peloponesian war) and that the T-Y armour was never used by spartans. Does anyone know something good enough to verify this?

[Phalanx300]

Mmm, I remember him also saying that the Spartans who did wear Linothorax dyed it crimson red. :|

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Ok,please someone explain me why do you think the Spartans liked uniformity? Because their symbol was a red cloak? So what? Who spoke ever of same type of armour,same colors,same emblems? The 10.000 of Xenophon also wore crimson chitons on a parade. So what! Were they Spartans all of them,or did that mean they always wore it? Or that they were uniform in any other way? I don't see were this notion comes from. Not from a historical source at least! Even the imperial Romans,much later,with a much more organised army than the spartans didn't seem to have any clothe color uniformity! And now we have even come to the conclusion that they *must* have worn red linothorakes "because they disliked white" or because they "wouldn't want to break the efect". Only,there is no sourse stating that the Spartans wished to have any particular efect by their uniform apearence!
So some caution please! As for the use of only metal armour by the spartans, i have to say there is no such evidence or even indication. All the bronze statuettes that show spartan hoplites with bell cuirasses come from a date prior to the extended use of the t & y cuirass. The vast majority of representations of the t & y in Athens come from the Attic red figure pottery, something that is very uncommon in the region of Sparta. And actually,the hopite that Xenophon mentions was killed when an arrow went through his armour,he was a Spartan,and he was wearing a "spolas". Now whatever this thing was,it wasn't metal armour. One more point, Xenophon in his Spartan Consitution says that the Spartans have bronze covered shields,because they are getting cleaned quicker and get tarnished slower. NOT for uniformity. He doesn't make ANY mention of metal armour,nor of red linothorakes,nor of any other uniform characteristic.
Khairete
Giannis

[Lýsandros]

Many thanks for your opinion on T-Y armour in Sparta, Giannis

[Ghostmojo]

Ok,please someone explain me why do you think the Spartans liked uniformity? Because their symbol was a red cloak? So what? Who spoke ever of same type of armour,same colors,same emblems? The 10.000 of Xenophon also wore crimson chitons on a parade. So what! Were they Spartans all of them,or did that mean they always wore it? Or that they were uniform in any other way? I don't see were this notion comes from. Not from a historical source at least! Even the imperial Romans,much later,with a much more organised army than the spartans didn't seem to have any clothe color uniformity! And now we have even come to the conclusion that they *must* have worn red linothorakes "because they disliked white" or because they "wouldn't want to break the efect". Only,there is no sourse stating that the Spartans wished to have any particular efect by their uniform apearence!
So some caution please! As for the use of only metal armour by the spartans, i have to say there is no such evidence or even indication. All the bronze statuettes that show spartan hoplites with bell cuirasses come from a date prior to the extended use of the t & y cuirass. The vast majority of representations of the t & y in Athens come from the Attic red figure pottery, something that is very uncommon in the region of Sparta. And actually,the hopite that Xenophon mentions was killed when an arrow went through his armour,he was a Spartan,and he was wearing a "spolas". Now whatever this thing was,it wasn't metal armour. One more point, Xenophon in his Spartan Consitution says that the Spartans have bronze covered shields,because they are getting cleaned quicker and get tarnished slower. NOT for uniformity. He doesn't make ANY mention of metal armour,nor of red linothorakes,nor of any other uniform characteristic.
Khairete
Giannis

As I say, I was after opinions and information and this has turned into quite a lively little debate, which is good ... yes? I think so anyway. 8)

Whilst I accept the logic of your argument, I also think you have to at least tacitly accept that such an authoritarian state as Sparta, which did condition its (male especially) citizens from quite an early age, into putting the state first and the individual last - might actually be hankering after some kind of uniformity. Uniformity of purpose, action and belief. It would therefore follow that some kind of uniformity would appear in their martial appearance, and indeed there are plenty of historic references to suggest this. Given that the state armed and uniformed its troops, then it would make more simple common sense to mass-produce cheaply wherever possibly the articles necessary. The introduction of the lambda ? symbol was also a move towards uniformity and also perhaps a way of concealing who was Spartiate, who was Hypomeine, who was Perioikoi, who was Helot etc.

There is also the suggestion that other states and mercenary forces aped the Spartan image even to the point of adopting red. Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery etc.

It's not a case of them not liking white it's a case of rejecting the female related connotations of that colour (also mentioned in ancient sources I believe).

I do agree with you regarding armour, however, and tend to the view that they adopted different approaches as time went on. In many ways the Spartans were conservative, but in others they were innovative. In this instance I think they displayed both characteristics.

[Ghostmojo]

I am not sure how much can I trust this, but I remember that Nick Secunda stated in the Osprey book The Spartan Army that spartan soldiers only used bronze armour - be it the old bell cuirass from the archaic period or muscular ciurass from the classical period (or even no cuirass at all later during the peloponesian war) and that the T-Y armour was never used by spartans. Does anyone know something good enough to verify this?

I am very circumspect when it comes to Nick Sekunda's work. He has much enthusiasm and knowledge but some of his conclusions and omissions can be puzzling. His Osprey book needs a serious overhaul (preferably by somebody else). He never even mentions the 300 - the Hippeis etc. Given the paucity of available material and the necessity to try and fill the pages of a book - you would have thought he might have atleast given them a paragraph or two - perhaps merely a sentence? He also seems to lose interest after Leuktra 371BC and that is pretty much that. A pretty poor showing given the couple of hundred years of Spartan military history still about to follow. No mentions of Kleomenes III, Nabis etc..