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03-24-2005, 05:04 PM

Hoping someone can help me out with some research for a book project. I'm looking to find out how a Roman military officer would be addressed by a common legionary or a civilian. I understand the rank heirarchy (thank you, Crispvs and Rusty Meyers), but can't seem to find the terms of address anywhere. 
 
So, for example, would Antonius Primus (commander of VII Galbiana) be referred to as: "Legatus Primus". Would "Legatus" be a title as well as a rank? Or would he be (in translated form) "General Primus"? 
 
In similar fashion, how would a tribune, prefect, and centurion be addressed by a common legionary? 
 
Thanks very much for any help you can provide on this. 
 
--Jim Duffy (Taurus 33)

Marcus Mummius · 03-25-2005, 06:12 PM

All I know is that a superior was probaly adressed with 'domine' (=my lord). 
 
Greetings, 
MarcusMummius

Crispvs · 03-27-2005, 10:43 PM

A soldier would probably address a soldier of equal rank as 'Frater' (my brother). He would address a senior as 'Domine' (my lord). I am not sure how he would address a soldier of lower rank. Possibly by rank title? Ie. a centurio would address a tribune as 'Domine', a fellow centurio as 'Frater' and might address an optio as 'Optio'. 
 
Crispvs

03-28-2005, 02:01 AM

Thanks, Crispvs and Marcus. My only problem with them addressing all the senior officers as "domine" or "dominus", is this... 
 
My novel revolves around a familia of gladiators who are conscripted into the regions to fight for Otho in AD69 (based on facutal events). The gladiators already address their lanista as "dominus". I was looking for some different form of address to their military commanders so as (1.) not to confuse the readers and (2.) to remind the readers that "they're in the army now" and things are different for them. 
 
But if that's what the form of address was, then that's what it was, and I'll deal with it. If anyone else has any thoughts or comments, I'd love to hear them. Thanks, again for your help with this. 
 
--Jim Duffy (Taurus 33)

03-28-2005, 02:03 AM

Sorry... Typo... "conscripted into the regions" should have been "conscripted into the legions".

03-28-2005, 08:53 PM

Salve, 
 
Just a quicky, straight out of my Latin dictionary - 'Vir Optime', or possibly just 'Optime'. I don't know anything of the context of this but I'm sure some bright spark will enlighten us. 
 
TTFN 
 
Mummius

03-28-2005, 09:12 PM

Mummius-- I'll go with the obvious here, but could "Optime" be a form of address to an Optio? If so, wonder if there was a similar form of address to the tribunes, legates, and centurions? 
 
Anyone? Beuller? Beuller? 
 
Taurus 33

Marcus Seneca Cato · 03-29-2005, 05:17 AM

Worse comes to worse, I'd assume that somebody could just refer to them by their title/function. Centurio, Optio etc.

03-31-2005, 06:59 PM

Taurus, 
 
Sorry to be a Latin bore but Optime is a form of Optimus, meaning the best. As in 'Iuppiter Optime Maxime'. And Vir means man, so 'best man'. Obviously the form of address to a superior, but whether it has any military context is another thing altogether. What I can say is that Optime has no link to Optio. 
 
Vale 
 
Mummius

03-31-2005, 07:14 PM

Thanks for the clarification on that, Mummius. After talking to a number of people about this issue, I've decided to do what Cato suggested earlier, and that's use their rank also as their title, like in the modern army (ie. a sergeant would be called "Sergeant" or "Sergeant Jones"). So, Macer will be referred to as "Tribune" or "Tribune Macer" when needed and Spurinna will be "Legate" or "Legate Spurrina", etc. I think this will be the easiest for the readers to follow. Thanks to all who helped on this. 
 
--Jim Duffy (Taurus 33)

Vincula · 03-31-2005, 07:23 PM

You're really looking for something called the "vocative" here. 
Latin is one of these strange languages where words change their endings dependent on the grammar. So the "vocative" is (mostly) different than the normal "nominative". 
 
Believe it or not, when you address someone directly, you don't use their real name (e.g. "Taurus"), which is only used when you are talking about them (e.g. "Taurus in horto est," Taurus is in the garden). 
Speaking to Taurus (or indeed the "master," Dominus), you would say "Taure" (or "Domine"), where the final "e" is sounded out as a separate syllable. The same goes for the tribune, which is Tribunus (like Taurus) in Latin, so the vocative is "Tribune" (as three syllables, "tri-boon-ay"). 
Optio falls into a different group of nouns, where the vocative is the same as the nominative. So, addressing an Optio, you'd say "Optio". (Centurio is the same, and - even more confusingly - Frater.) 
 
Hope this makes sense.

03-31-2005, 07:45 PM

Thanks, Vinclua. I was just in a lengthy e-mail discussion two days ago with Sander Van Dorst at the Ludus Gladiatorius site about the whole "vocative" thing. Frankly, it was just getting too damn confusing for the readers. I had some of my "manuscript test readers" read through a scene written with some of the vocative terminology and they just didn't get it. That's why I decided to "English-ize" all the ranks (ie. "Tribune" rather than "Tribunus" with its variables, etc.) There are some obviously important Latin words I've left, such as scutum/scuta, pilum/pila, gladius/gladii, and a few others, including the various styles of gladiators and their weaponry. But I think that's about the max that the average reader is going to want to "learn Latin" to enjoy an action/adventure novel (vs. non-fiction). I know the folks at this site would have no problem with it, but sometimes (as my editor keeps reminding me), you have to write for the lowest common denominator. Having to keep explaining or clarifying terms begins to interrupt the flow of the story. 
 
But I do thank you for the information. 
 
--Jim (Taurus 33)

Marcus Seneca Cato · 04-01-2005, 05:58 AM

From my limited knowledge, the vocative is the same as the nominative, with the second declension excepted. 
 
-us nouns would end in -e in vocative, but -a nouns would remain the same. 
 
In my very humble opinion, bringing in Latin grammar would probably confuse the hell out of the average reader though...

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