Miscellaneous odd, and irritating, points!

[ParthianBow]

I'm hoping that romanarmy.com's excellent members can again help out with a few small points:

Did violets (the flowers) exist in Italy/did the Romans know of them? (Wikipedia - I know - only mentions N hemisphere, and I can't find it in Apicius or any other of my texts.)

How long do vines take from planting to harvesting grapes?

Although sandalwood is Indian (or Australian) is there any info about it being transported with the pepper etc which came to Rome?

Anyone know anything about millet and lentils being grown in N. Africa at the time of Ruspina and Thapsus?

Was there a formal length of time in Rome from a person's death to their funeral? e.g. in Ireland it's usually 3 days.

Many thanks in advance...

[Nathan Ross]

I don't know much about lentils, maize or violets, but here are a few suggestions for the other queries:

How long do vines take from planting to harvesting grapes?

Columella should be your man for that one: De Rustica, all about agriculture, including viniculture. Here's an online text, (if you can pick through the Olde English!):

[url:2qijuj2b]http://books.google.com/books?id=qcNbAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=columella#v=onepage&q=&f=false[/url]

Do a search on 'vines' or whatever and it should come up with what you need.

Although sandalwood is Indian (or Australian) is there any info about it being transported with the pepper etc which came to Rome?

I had a look in Dalby's Empire of Pleasures: Luxury & Indulgence in the Roman World - which if you haven't got a copy is a must-have for all these sorts of questions, and full of great info on produce from slaves to snails. Actually, there's no mention of sandalwood, although references are given to import of cassia and a form of cardamom from India. Jessica Langenbucher seems to believe that sandalwood was brought in through Berenike in ancient times (e.g in this article: [url:2qijuj2b]http://www.archbase.com/berenike/UCstudentLA1.html[/url]): apparently, The Periplus of the Erythræan sea (a digest of trade in the Indian Ocean in the Hellenistic (?) era) mentions sandalwood coming from south India, Ceylon and Java.

Was there a formal length of time in Rome from a person's death to their funeral? e.g. in Ireland it's usually 3 days.

Eight days after death, according to Smith's Dictionary - from a note in Honoratus' Commentary on the Aeneid...

Here's the entry, on Lacus Curtius - lots more info on funereal matters here:

[url:2qijuj2b]http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Funus.html[/url]

Hope that helps - Nathan

[ParthianBow]

Thanks for all your all help, Nathan.
Hoping someone knows about violets, lentils and millet now! :lol:
Cheers

[M. Demetrius]

I'm not an expert on Apicius, nor do I have a copy of his recipe book at present, but I'm sure I remember lentils with garum and other ingredients. Of course, "lentils" can also be a generic word for "beans", so that may not be a good reference.

[Epictetus]

The corpse was usually carried out of the house (efferebatur) on the eighth day after death (Serv. ad Virg. Aen. V.64).

That really surprises me, actually. I had expected it to happen much sooner than this.

[Paullus Scipio]

I'm not an expert on Apicius, nor do I have a copy of his recipe book at present, but I'm sure I remember lentils with garum and other ingredients. Of course, "lentils" can also be a generic word for "beans", so that may not be a good reference.

Lentils (lenticula) as such seem to have been well known in the Roman world :-
1. Apicius has several recipes for them, including lentils and parsnips ( lenticula ex sphondylis), lentils and chestnuts ( lenticulum de castaneis) and plain lentils with leeks and coriander (aliter lenticulam) and vegetable and lentil soup ( peas,lentils chick-peas with barley,leeks, coriander aniseed, fennel, beets and cabbage leaves) for example.....

2."I find that the authorities on the subject consider that the eating of lentils promotes an even temper" Pliny, XVIII.32

3. Cato's text on farm management also refers to preserving lentils ; "How you should preserve lentils: dissolve silphium in vinegar ( a now largely extinct bitter herb/spice grown only in Libya - Nero is reputed to have had the last of it ! In modern versions, replaced by asafoetida/Indian hing) soak the lentils in the silphium/vingar mixture, then stand them in the sun. Rub the dried lentils with oil and let them dry and they will keep quite sound"

[Nathan Ross]

...on the eighth day after death (Serv. ad Virg. Aen. V.64).

That really surprises me, actually. I had expected it to happen much sooner than this.

It does seem a long time - perhaps some religious reason for it (giving the manes time to depart the body?), or just a practical one - it took that long to arrange the funeral! Also, all the mourners would need to be informed by messenger and given time to assemble.

I have read elsewhere, however, that the funeral happened sooner, and eight days was the period between the funeral itself and the graveside mourning dinner - I can't read the latin in the Honoratus extract, however, so I tend to trust Smith's definition more...

As for lentils - Dalby (mentioned above) notes lentils coming from Egypt. North Africa seems largely devoted to wheat production, but so was Egypt, so quite possibly lentils were grown there too.

- Nathan

[Paullus Scipio]

....oh, and as to millet, it was quite common in Roman times and formed the basis of 'puls' ( pulmentum) a type of porridge or pottage that was eaten by the poor in particular....and a euphemism/nickname for early Romans was "porridge eaters". The wealthier used spelt for their porridge, but this could not be ground into flour for bread - which in turn became increasingly common from the fifth century BC onward, with many types of grain used.

Both lentils and millet were also grown in Egypt and North Africa.......

[rusty myers]

I read that lentils are actually one of the oldest agricultural crops that humans planted. I know there is aphoto somewhere of some found in Egypyt from like 3200 BC... Easily Roman.

[Bill Thayer]

Apicius is on my site complete, if only the English and still missing some proofreading, here. Violets were common among the Romans (a fair start here); see the article Hortus in Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, but in various authors; and speaking of Apicius, he gives a recipe (I.5) for making violet wine.

Millet was so common, and the climate of North Africa so suitable to it, that it's unthinkable it shouldn't have been grown there, although I haven't poked around for that specific information.