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Greek helmets galore
#31
Quote:I suggest you look without prejudice on some vase-paintings (eg from Euphronios) depicting warriors with upturned helmets and tell me: Wouldn't the pulled back helmet fall down backwards?

This is a learning moment. Many historians and archaeologists look down on reenactors, and there are definite hazards to reenactment, but two minutes with a corinthian would disabuse you of the notion that it cannot be worn pushed back. The beauty of RAT and other sites like it is that there is a meeting of people with diverse backgrounds. See the image below, then watch the video of a fellow, who is probably a member of RAT, going through a whole set of drill exercises with his corinthian pushed up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAjni4Yb ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJrUxu2L ... re=channel

Quote:Well, I have no doubt that the corinthian helmet in its upturned position was an iconographic fiction.
Fact: The first depictions of the upturned position can be dated around 530 BC.
Fact: The corinthian helmet is ca. two centuries older.
Simple question: Why wasn't the upturned position depicted earlier?

The simplest answer is a trend in artistry. As I said, it is unlikely they fought like this, thus they would pull it down just before combat. Later artists may simply leave them up for the reason you mention, to see the face. That is not the same as creating it de novo.

Also, early corinthians generally had shorter cheek pieces. It is easier to wear it up with longer cheek pieces. So maybe there is a functional explanation as well.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#32
Anyone who has worn an enclosed helm or read eye witness accounts of battles where such helmets were utilised would quickly realise that it would be raised any time there was a lull in the fighting. You raise the helmet to reduce heat stress. You raise the helmet to breath properly. You raise the helmet to look around. You raise the helmet to give orders. You raise the helmet to hear someone speaking to you. With more advanced helmets only the visor needs to be raised.

As already said, anyone who has worn a properly fitted Corinthian would also realise that it can be worn up and not fall off the head. It may even have been a design feature of some Corinthians (i.e. those dated after 530 BC).
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#33
Absolutely! The man in the video is Athanasios Porporis. His helmet is one of the closest reconstructions of corinthian helmets. He usually choses to wear it upright. Actually,he went under a rain of (blunted) arrows with his helmet up.
I also found that raising the helmet up is actually a necessity under the greek sun! It feels great to feel even the burning hot air on your wet face after wearing the helmet for some minutes! It stucks on your head and is secure. Something that helps a lot is a pilos under the helmet. Indeed,in many of the images of warriors with raised helmets,they have arming caps. It is especially useful to cover the top of your ears with it,so that part becomes thicker and is mainly where the helmet stucks.
As i have shown on another thread,the phrygian cap was often worn unded corinthian helmets. It is shown with its ear and neck pieces protruding under raised helmets. And indeed,what they did is that they doubled the ear flangs over the ears and also the neck piece,so that it served as padding for the neck. The part that mostly supports the helmet is the neck,so i find it quite logical.
Here are my photos
[Image: DSC03543.jpg]
[Image: DSC03544.jpg]
So no,it isn't valid that the upright helmet images are fictionary. I wouldn't go in battle like this,but it certainly is useful if not necessary to raise your helmet in every chance,even during a break of battle.
Even Exekias,in his famous vase with Achilles and Ajax shows one of the two with a raised helmet,and an arming cup visible underneath.

Just to clarify:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... C03545.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... C03166.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... C02736.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... C02872.jpg

EDIT: (addition) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpkrq9-u ... re=channel
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#34
I've wondered too if the shape of the turned-out back 'lip' of such helmets was designed to help hold the helmet in this position- note how it matches the line of the neck just right
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
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#35
Quote: So do you consider, for instance, the Bobuec helmet to be "Attic"? I don't think it's composed of seven pieces, but it has all the characteristics of what most call "Thraco-Attic" helmets - a small crest, a frontlet terminating in volutes, a visor and brim. And what about the Gavani helmet, which has all the characteristics of "Thraco Attic" helmets, but is missing the small crest?

Yes, the helmets from Gavani, Bubuj (or Bubuech), Kamenka-Dneprovskaja, Grushevsky and Krasnodar are made from one piece of bronze, but are modeled after the seven-piece-model. It's interesting that these one-piece-helmets are mostly from scythian burials. I suppose they came from a provincial workshop which imitated the seven-piece-model. Moreover, the Gavani and Kamenka-Dneprovskaja-helmets show an identical modeling of the neckguard. Terminologically, yes, I call them "attic", because they wouldn*t be possible without the seven-piece-model. It's debatable whether an example from Orzonikize-Vladikavkaz is belonging to this type, I have my doubts.

Quote: Which triangle pieces do you mean? The triangular "peak" of the frontlet?

No. The "triangle"-piece, as I call it, is the piece closing the gap between the two halves of the calotte. It is often decorated, eg with a Athena-bust.

Quote: It was published in Pierre Juhel, “Un casque inédit de la basse époque hellénistique conserve au muse de Prilep (République de Macédoine),” in Revue des Études Anciennes 110, 1(2008): 89-102. It's a "piloid" helmet which is almost identical to that seen on several 2nd c. BC funerary stelae depicting cavalrymen. It looks like the Royal Athena helmet, only without frontlet/volutes and with smaller brim but a more pronounced neck protector; it's also missing cheek pieces. It was found in a burial including a machaira and two javelins near a Hellenistic fort on the northern border of Antigonid Macedonia in Pelagonia. Though it didn't include any horse equipment, it seems very likely from the equipment and helm combination that the deceased was a cavalryman.

Many thanks, really!

As for the corinthians, I admit, it's not so easy, as I wanted it. But thankfully the illyrian, corinthian, and apulo-corinthian won't be covered in the Guttman publication! ;-) )
Jörg
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#36
Quote:I've wondered too if the shape of the turned-out back 'lip' of such helmets was designed to help hold the helmet in this position- note how it matches the line of the neck just right

I wondered the same thing when I was hunting down an image of a reenactor to show him. In addition, I have always read that the lengthening of the cheek pieces was for greater throat protection. This may be correct, but I also see that it helps in allowing the helmet to be worn up on the head. In effect the later Corinthians are designed to be worn in two different positions. I may be wrong, as I said helmet dating is not my specialty, but I think the Apulo-corinthian appears in the late 6th c- the same time that depictions start to show the helmet worn up on the head. Perhaps there was a general shift in fashion over the 6th c that influenced both artists and helmet makers.

EDIT: Hey Dan, I just reread and saw that you posted this: "It may even have been a design feature of some Corinthians (i.e. those dated after 530 BC)." Has anyone written on this? I think it is interesting enough to post about on my blog, so a source would be great and save me writing and argument.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#37
All this just goes to show what a master piece the Corinthian design came to be. Undoubtedly refined over the years by masters,
in the same way the Architecture of Greece was perfected in the Acropolis of Pericles.....(Just back from Athens, in case you hadn't guessed. Big Grin )
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#38
Quote:As for the corinthians, I admit, it's not so easy, as I wanted it.

Bravo, too many would rather be "right" than learn and too often academics like ourselves fail to see how much can be gained from other sources of inquiry outside of our field. Since I know nothing about you, I am assuming you are a graduate student. Were you taught by someone or read somewhere that the Corinthian could not be worn this way or that the Apulo-corinthian was unrelated to this? Perhaps this is something that need correcting for a wider audience.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#39
The corinthian certainly evolved in a very sophisticated helmet. From its thickness in various places to it's upper desigh to make the head "stuck" inside the bowl and not move even without a stripe. The neck guard must have started turning outwards primarily to protect the neck when the the helmet was properly worn. Protect both when you raise your head up and from downward blows to the neck. However its design must have evolved even more to allow it resting comfortably on top of the head. This perhaps is the reason that chalkidean helmets that could but were more unlikely to be worn upright had steeper neck guards,the illyrian as well,while the corinthians most often have a curved neckguard.
Also,this may be the reason that although the neck guard is more curved in later corinthians,the sides are steeper and narrower than the earlier types that opened perhaps to allow bending the head right and left and to ease wearing. However,my helmet that is of the later type and is close fitting on the ears when wearing doesn't empede bending the neck right and left at all.
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#40
Quote: Were you taught by someone or read somewhere that the Corinthian could not be worn this way or that the Apulo-corinthian was unrelated to this? Perhaps this is something that need correcting for a wider audience.

A very influencial book was T. Schäfer, Andres Agathoi. Studien zum Realitätsgehalt der Rüstung von Kriegern auf attischen Grabreliefs (1997), in which the thesis about the fictional position of the corinthian helmet was proposed, at least for me believable. ;-) )

But now I declare the discussion about corinthians closed!
If anyone wants to read about these, I strongly recommend the GOD of helmet-research, Emil Kunze, who published significant helmets from Olympia and established the typology of the "Kegelhelm", the illyrian, the corinthian and chalcidian helmets. Because the first three types are well represented from Olympia, Kunze wrote everything important about them down, but the chalcidian is in its late stages missing. These gaps are amazingly well filled by examples from the Guttmann collection, so my selection.

The postings from "MeinPanzer" brought me an idea:

IF ANYONE OF YOU CAN INFORM BE ABOUT HELMETS I DIDN'T KNOW BEFORE, BUT ARE SIGNIFICANT FOR MY WORK, I WILL THANK HIM IN THE UPCOMING PUBLICATIONS!
Jörg
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#41
Quote:EDIT: Hey Dan, I just reread and saw that you posted this: "It may even have been a design feature of some Corinthians (i.e. those dated after 530 BC)." Has anyone written on this?
Dunno. I just thought of it after you mentioned the longer cheek pieces on later Corinthians. It might be interesting to see if there was a corrolation between the development of longer cheek pieces and the appearance of Corinthians being worn up on the head in illustrations dating c.530 and later.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#42
Quote:Because the first three types are well represented from Olympia, Kunze wrote everything important about them down

If he wrote everything important about Corinthians we wouldn't have had this discussion since he would have mentioned their ability to be worn up on the head. How many other facts do you think might be revealed through experimental archaeology rather than armchair archaeology?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#43
Quote: How many other facts do you think might be revealed through experimental archaeology rather than armchair archaeology?

Nothing important, I'm sure! :wink:
Jörg
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#44
Quote:The postings from "MeinPanzer" brought me an idea:

IF ANYONE OF YOU CAN INFORM BE ABOUT HELMETS I DIDN'T KNOW BEFORE, BUT ARE SIGNIFICANT FOR MY WORK, I WILL THANK HIM IN THE UPCOMING PUBLICATIONS!

Could you perhaps provide a list of "real" and "imitation" Hellenistic Attic helmets which you know of? It would be kind of hard to see if I know of other ones if I don't know what you're working with! I've done some research in the past on the arms and armour employed by nomads around the Black Sea littoral, so I might be able to contribute something there.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#45
My current hunting targets are:

1) an attic helmet in the art market. At the Leo Koenig Galleries, New York, there was 2004 an exhibition called "... as time goes by". The antiquities were sponsored by Gordian Weber Kunsthandel, Cologne. On the very small images there's an attic helmet, apparently of the seven-piece-construction, visible.

2) an attic helmet, apparently one-pieced, from Marvinci, now in the Museum of Macedonia, Skopje. I haven't done much work on this yet, but I'm missing an contact-address of this museum.

3) an hellenistic helmet unlike anything I've seen before. Reportedly unearthed during the metro-excavations at the Pompeion, Athens, but not published in the exhibition-catalogue "The City beneath the City".

4) a piloid in the museum of Shumen, Bulgaria.

This is my basic list of attic helmets:
Melos (Berlin), Melos (Paris), Poteidania, art market Munich (Hermann Historica 43, 2002), 2x Prodromi (Korfu), Athens (Madrid), Kerc (St. Petersburg), Bubuj (Moscow), Gavani (Brailei), Kamenka (Kherson), Grushevsky (Novocherkassk) and Krasnodar. Plus the mentioned fragments and two doubtful forms from Ohrid (Berlin) and Orzonikize (Moscow).

I haven't done a catalogue of piloids yet, but I know examples in Oxford, Turin, 2x Merdshana, Achtanizovskaja, Kazanluk.
Jörg
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