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Quote:My current hunting targets are:
3) an hellenistic helmet unlike anything I've seen before. Apparently unearthed during the metro-excavations at the Pompeion, Athens, but not published in the exhibition-catalogue "The City beneath the City".
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Was this a find from the excavated area under the museum? EDIT: OK I some how missed the word Metro- in front of the word excavations.... :roll:
Any photos?
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Quote:Was this a find from the excavated area under the museum? EDIT: OK I some how missed the word Metro- in front of the word excavations.... :roll:
Any photos?
Sorry, I don't have photos, I just have seen it briefly during a deep journey into the innards of the internet. It has a half-spherical calotte, volutes and a crest like the attic helmet, but a (don't know the english term, sorry) "umlaufende, glatte Krempe" a bit like a piloid.
I just know that it was found near the Pompeion?
Jörg
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Quote:My current hunting targets are:
1) an attic helmet in the art market. At the Leo Koenig Galleries, New York, there was 2004 an exhibition called "... as time goes by". The antiquities were sponsored by Gordian Weber Kunsthandel, Cologne. On the very small images there's an attic helmet, apparently of the seven-piece-construction, visible.
2) an attic helmet, apparently one-pieced, from Marvinci, now in the Museum of Macedonia, Skopje. I haven't done much work on this yet, but I'm missing an contact-address of this museum.
Do you know during which years of excavation this helmet was found by any chance? I have gone through excavation reports from Marvinci during the 1960s, but I've never seen anything about a helmet.
Quote:3) an hellenistic helmet unlike anything I've seen before. Reportedly unearthed during the metro-excavations at the Pompeion, Athens, but not published in the exhibition-catalogue "The City beneath the City".
4) a piloid in the museum of Shumen, Bulgaria.
I seem to remember seeing a helmet from Shumen somewhere, but I can't seem to find it at the moment... Do you have some more information, by any chance?
Quote:This is my basic list of attic helmets:
Melos (Berlin), Melos (Paris), Poteidania, art market Munich (Hermann Historica 43, 2002), 2x Prodromi (Korfu), Athens (Madrid), Kerc (St. Petersburg), Bubuj (Moscow), Gavani (Brailei), Kamenka (Kherson), Grushevsky (Novocherkassk) and Krasnodar. Plus the mentioned fragments and two doubtful forms from Ohrid (Berlin) and Orzonikize (Moscow).
Do you not consider the Pergamon helmet to be Attic? I think the only helmet I don't know of out of this list is the Athens helmet. Would you be able to provide me with a bit more information on it?
Quote:I haven't done a catalogue of piloids yet, but I know examples in Oxford, Turin, 2x Merdshana, Achtanizovskaja, Kazanluk.
You can add to this list the helmet from Scythian Neapolis from the tomb of Skiluros, and perhaps also a fragment of a helmet including a volute from the same site (Fig. 3 in Maslennikov and Treister's article publishing the Lake Chokrak find; it looks similar to a fragment belonging to the helmet from Skiluros' tomb, but looks different enough that it's either a very poor reproduction or a different helmet altogether); and the helmets from Greki 2 and Orechovka. All three of these are published with further details in A.V. Simonenko, "Bewaffnung und Kriegswesen der Sarmaten und späten Skythen im nördlichen Schwarzmeergebiet," in Eurasia antiqua 7 (2001): 259-63.
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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As for the Marvinci-helmet, I've found this site:
http://faq.macedonia.org/travel/cities/gevgelija.html
I've seen the Shumen-piloid in a photo-album by another forum-member, I think it was "gladiator", a native Bulgarian.
The Pergamon-helmet is a bit difficult. Although hellenistic, it doesn't represent the hellenistic model (seven-pieced). It looks like archaic depictions of attic helmets. The neckguard isn't separated from the calotte and the volute is modeled only by the upper line of the frontlet, not from the whole frontlet.
The Madrid-helmet is only reportedly from Athens. I suppose it was acquired in Athens, but not found there.
Lousy pictures from this are published by Blazquez, Zephyrus 8, 1957
There was only one helmet from Neapolis Scythica. It was first reconstructed as an attic (inspired by depictions from the tomb of Lyson and Kallikles) by Dombrovsky and Pogrebova, but Zaicev showed that it was a piloid.
Jörg
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Quote:As for the Marvinci-helmet, I've found this site:
http://faq.macedonia.org/travel/cities/gevgelija.html
Thanks for posting this! I remember coming across this site years ago and noting it, but forgetting the site itself. Anyway, the find itself sounds extremely interesting, especially since it includes a new iron cuirass from the late fourth century, which is a very big find. Something that big must be a high priority for publication in FYROM archaeological publications. However, the most recent publications of finds from Marvinci are from 1997, and this find seems more recent than that. If it would be published anywhere, I would imagine that it would be in recent issues of Macedoniae Acta Archaeologica.
Quote:I've seen the Shumen-piloid in a photo-album by another forum-member, I think it was "gladiator", a native Bulgarian.
Oh, right. Gladiator posts a lot of very interesting stuff, but I think that's because he has access to lots of unpublished material from Bulgarian museums. He's posted pictures and info on a lot of very valuable mail finds as well.
Quote:The Pergamon-helmet is a bit difficult. Although hellenistic, it doesn't represent the hellenistic model (seven-pieced). It looks like archaic depictions of attic helmets. The neckguard isn't separated from the calotte and the volute is modeled only by the upper line of the frontlet, not from the whole frontlet.
But don't you agree that it has the characteristics of imitating an Attic helmet, much like many of the one piece helmets from the Black Sea littoral?
Quote:The Madrid-helmet is only reportedly from Athens. I suppose it was acquired in Athens, but not found there.
Lousy pictures from this are published by Blazquez, Zephyrus 8, 1957
I'll have to check that out. Thanks!
Quote:There was only one helmet from Neapolis Scythica. It was first reconstructed as an attic (inspired by depictions from the tomb of Lyson and Kallikles) by Dombrovsky and Pogrebova, but Zaicev showed that it was a piloid.
Thanks, that makes sense. I guess the drawing in Maslennikov and Treister's article is just a poor reproduction.
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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Quote: Thanks for posting this! I remember coming across this site years ago and noting it, but forgetting the site itself. Anyway, the find itself sounds extremely interesting, especially since it includes a new iron cuirass from the late fourth century, which is a very big find. Something that big must be a high priority for publication in FYROM archaeological publications. However, the most recent publications of finds from Marvinci are from 1997, and this find seems more recent than that. If it would be published anywhere, I would imagine that it would be in recent issues of Macedoniae Acta Archaeologica.
I will contact the museum!
Quote:Oh, right. Gladiator posts a lot of very interesting stuff, but I think that's because he has access to lots of unpublished material from Bulgarian museums. He's posted pictures and info on a lot of very valuable mail finds as well.
I will contact him, too!
Quote:But don't you agree that it has the characteristics of imitating an Attic helmet, much like many of the one piece helmets from the Black Sea littoral?
As I said, it's a bit difficult. The one-piece-attic-helmets all have a protruding "Stirnschirm", therefore are following the seven-piece-model in shape and appearance. The helmet from Pergamon doesn't have a "Stirnschirm"! It doesn't look like the hellenistic helmets, but like a archaic one! Hellenistic helmets are surely far more complicated than we can judge from the handful of preserved examples!
Quote:Thanks, that makes sense. I guess the drawing in Maslennikov and Treister's article is just a poor reproduction.
The image in Maslennikov -Treister 1997 is a reproduction of Dombrovsky's drawing. The image on the next page shows the Grushevsky-helmet (a reproduction from the lousy catalogue of the museum of Novocherkassk). Treister mentions an attic helmet found in the Apostolidi-Tumulus and now being kept in the museum of Maikop. Unfortunately he doesn't cite anything to this one. I have asked Treister in person recently, but wasn't able to answer me.
Jörg
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Quote:As I said, it's a bit difficult. The one-piece-attic-helmets all have a protruding "Stirnschirm", therefore are following the seven-piece-model in shape and appearance. The helmet from Pergamon doesn't have a "Stirnschirm"! It doesn't look like the hellenistic helmets, but like a archaic one!
But many one-piece helmets which you take to be Attic do not have crests like the seven piece models, either. Why does a lack of a visor make a helmet non-Attic (when, for instance, the Grushevsky helmet, an Attic by your reckoning, barely has a visor at all), but a lack of a crest doesn't? It's little arbitrary points like this which make classifying Hellenistic helmet types almost futile.
Quote: Hellenistic helmets are surely far more complicated than we can judge from the handful of preserved examples!
You've got that right!
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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I call them all "attic", but we must expect a wide range of variability! All these helmets have in phenomenological sense common characteristics, like a half-spherical-calotte and a frontlet with volutes. Let us call the helmets which fall under this basic definition "attic", ok? Now, we can divide further in subtypes, like with or without visor, the position of the frontlet, the construction ... Did you get my point?
As I said, the Pergamon-helmet looks like archaic depictions of attic helmets, so it's clearly an attic helmet, but feels "strange" in company of the others with a visor.
The helmet from Ohrid for example doesn't have a frontlet with volutes, but does have a visor! Is this one an attic?  hock:
Jörg
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Quote:You're right, it was well theorized (e. g. Waurick 1988) that they did emerge from the attic helmet, but so far a direct evidence was missing. The hellenistic attic helmets are mainly composed of seven pieces: two halves of the calotte, one "triangle"-piece, one frontlet-piece, the neck-guard and two cheekpieces. I was able to identify a helmet from the 4th century without the protruding frontlet, but constructed in the same manner from seven pieces.
Going back a page, could you give some more information on this helmet? Is it one from the Guttmann collection? Also, if it lacks a frontlet, how can it be composed of seven pieces? Wouldn't it be a six-piece helmet then?
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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I readily admit to being no expert at all when it comes to this subject, however, I was wondering if anybody had any information upon the development (if any) of the Pilos helmet? I was interested if this very simple and eminently functional helm ever changed much at all - for example with the addition of hinged cheek pieces etc. once the Greeks started arming themselves more heavily, after a period of more lightly armed mobile warfare.
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For those interested in this thread, I recommend downloading John Miles Paddock's 1993 Ph. D. thesis, "The bronze Italian helmet : the development of the Cassis from the last quarter of the sixth century B.C. to the third quarter of the first century A.D., for free from: http://ethos.bl.uk/Home.do There are some other excellent theses online there, just sign up and search.
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Quote:Going back a page, could you give some more information on this helmet? Is it one from the Guttmann collection? Also, if it lacks a frontlet, how can it be composed of seven pieces? Wouldn't it be a six-piece helmet then?
This helmet is published in: A. d’Amicis u. a., Catalogo del Museo Nazionale Archeologico di Taranto 1, 3. Atleti e Guerrieri. Tradizioni aristocratiche a Taranto tra VI. e V. Sec. A. C. (1997) Nr. 119.2
It was found in a tomb near Canosa. It has a "Stirnbügel" (frontlet?), but no "Stirnschirm" (visor?). Concerning the hellenistic helmets, frontlet and visor are composed out of one piece. This helmet from Canosa has a frontlet, but instead a visor, there is a plain area directly above the forehead. This plain area and the frontlet are one piece, analogous to the frontlet and the visor.
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I've found images!
Look, there's a triangle-piece and the neck-guard is also a separate piece!
Jörg
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That is the first time I've seen a photo of tha thelmet! There was a drawing of it(I could be thinking of a montefortino tho')
Lauds Jorg!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
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Quote:That is the first time I've seen a photo of tha thelmet! There was a drawing of it(I could be thinking of a montefortino tho')
Lauds Jorg!
A drawing? where?
Quote:For those interested in this thread, I recommend downloading John Miles Paddock's 1993 Ph. D. thesis, "The bronze Italian helmet : the development of the Cassis from the last quarter of the sixth century B.C. to the third quarter of the first century A.D., for free from: http://ethos.bl.uk/Home.do There are some other excellent theses online there, just sign up and search.
Wow, THANK YOU!!!!
Attached are two images of helmets from the Guttmann collection. If you have these images or others of the same helmets in a better quality or higher resolution than this, please!
Jörg
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