Posts: 3,559
Threads: 275
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation:
10
Salvete!
Does anyone have any additional info / photos of this helmet?:
http://www.romancoins.info/D4617487x.jpg
The only inscription in Christie`s site is this:
Lot Description
A LATE ROMAN IRON HELMET
CIRCA 4TH-EARLY 5TH CENTURY A.D.
Formed of several sections hinged and riveted in place, the domed cap with a brow band off set by horizontal ribs, the two halves of the cap joined to a central ridge by rivets, the nose-guard and ornamental arching brows riveted to the brow band, the cheek-pieces flanged toward the neck and hinged to the brow band, each perforated below the chin, the neck-guard with an everted hemispherical flange hinged to the back of the brow band
11½ in. (29.2 cm.) long
Provenance
German Private Collection, acquired in the early 1970s.
It is strange that there is so little evidence about this interesting piece. I would perhaps have a replica made out of it...
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
PHILODOX
Moderator
![[Image: fectio.png]](http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd270/sattuviitana/fectio.png)
Posts: 46
Threads: 4
Joined: Sep 2008
Reputation:
0
Its Gutman collection helm?
Posts: 3,559
Threads: 275
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation:
10
Quote:Its Gutman collection helm?
No it isn`t Denis, at least to my knowledge. Nevertheless a very interesting one :wink: ...
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
PHILODOX
Moderator
Posts: 4,887
Threads: 163
Joined: Aug 2002
Reputation:
0
This helmet belongs to someone I am in contact with. What specifically do you need to know Jyrki?
Posts: 3,559
Threads: 275
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation:
10
Quote:This helmet belongs to someone I am in contact with. What specifically do you need to know Jyrki?
Hi Adrian!
Is it possible to get some additional photos of it from different angles?
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
PHILODOX
Moderator
Posts: 601
Threads: 80
Joined: Oct 2007
Reputation:
0
I´ve seen it before, but I cannot recall when or where. :?
-This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how
sheep´s bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
![[Image: escudocopia.jpg]](http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc320/iagoba_f/escudocopia.jpg) Iagoba Ferreira Benito, member of Cohors Prima Gallica
and current Medieval Martial Arts teacher of Comilitium Sacrae Ensis, fencing club.
Posts: 13,279
Threads: 102
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
It was discussed some time ago on a thread, some thought it to be a fake, IIRC.
What the actual outcome of the brawl, I mean discussion was, escapes me, I'm afraid! :o lol:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Posts: 4,226
Threads: 176
Joined: Mar 2003
Reputation:
172
Quote:It was discussed some time ago on a thread, some thought it to be a fake, IIRC.
What the actual outcome of the brawl, I mean discussion was, escapes me, I'm afraid! :o lol:
Here's the thread in question: link from old RAT
No conclusions reached, not surprisingly!
I notice the helmet has now been 'dated' 4th-5th century though. Any good reason behind that, does anyone know? The general consensus here seemed to favour late 3rd/early 4th...
- Nathan
Nathan Ross
Posts: 4,887
Threads: 163
Joined: Aug 2002
Reputation:
0
No need to contact the owner....
It's in the database Jyrki..
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,96/
Posts: 3,559
Threads: 275
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation:
10
Thanks guys  ! Howcome I never noticed that it is in the database, silly me...
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
PHILODOX
Moderator
Posts: 358
Threads: 18
Joined: Aug 2006
Reputation:
0
Quote:Gaius Julius Caesar:33cgykdj Wrote:It was discussed some time ago on a thread, some thought it to be a fake, IIRC.
What the actual outcome of the brawl, I mean discussion was, escapes me, I'm afraid! :o lol:
Here's the thread in question: link from old RAT
No conclusions reached, not surprisingly!
I notice the helmet has now been 'dated' 4th-5th century though. Any good reason behind that, does anyone know? The general consensus here seemed to favour late 3rd/early 4th...
- Nathan
It has hinges to attach the cheek-guards.
According to Damien Glad (archeologist specialised in late roman and byzantine warfare, and also member of the Herculiani), who recently published a book on eastern roman defensive equipment, known helmets with hinges - from Der El Medineh and Leyde - dates back to the late 5th/early 6th century. Not to the late 3rd/early 4th century as thought before.
That would be why this helmet datation have been postponed aswell. However I don't recall what Damien said about that helmet, I will maybe ask him.
"O niurt Ambrois ri Frangc ocus Brethan Letha."
"By the strenght of Ambrosius, king of the Franks and the Armorican Bretons."
Lebor Bretnach, Irish manuscript of the Historia Brittonum.
![[Image: 955d308995.jpg]](http://www.ciberupload.com/uploads/955d308995.jpg)
Agraes / Morcant map Conmail / Benjamin Franckaert
Posts: 3,559
Threads: 275
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation:
10
Very interesting, Benjamin!
Anyway this Deir-El-Medineh helmet puzzles me. In fact it is one of the most easily identified helmet from roman sculptural evidence in my opinion and by this I mean the arch of Galerius and it is dated somewhere around 300 AD...
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
PHILODOX
Moderator
Posts: 4,226
Threads: 176
Joined: Mar 2003
Reputation:
172
Quote:this Deir-El-Medineh helmet... is one of the most easily identified helmet from roman sculptural evidence in my opinion and by this I mean the arch of Galerius and it is dated somewhere around 300 AD...
I thought the same. If the dating of the 'Christies' helmet relies on the dating of the Deir-el-Medineh, and the latter is now being post-dated to the 5th/6th century, that leaves a rather substantial gap in the archeological record of Roman helmet evolution! That in itself, of course, is no reason to accept the old dating - making the finds 'fit' our idea of chronology (especially single items) cannot be a good idea - but it might be good to know exactly what evidence is being used for this proposed new date.
Simon James, in 1986 (and he may not have been the first person to do so!) suggested the development of the Roman 'spangenhelm' in the Danube region in the late 3rd century - using the Deir-el-Medineh helmet and the Arch of Galerius as models. He then assumed the slightly later introduction of the 'ridge' helmet based on earlier Persian examples. (Here's the article: [url  m4allkb]http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/syria_0039-7946_1986_num_63_1_6923[/url])
It would be a shame if these two helmets are somehow 'proved' to be centuries later - they fitted so neatly into a late 3rd/early 4th timeframe! 
- Nathan
Nathan Ross
Posts: 13,279
Threads: 102
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
There is a helmet on the Adamklissi monument tha thas been said to be a spangen helm.
Looks a lot like the Deir-el-Medineh too! To me anyway. A little.....
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Posts: 3,559
Threads: 275
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation:
10
Quote:There is a helmet on the Adamklissi monument tha thas been said to be a spangen helm.
Looks a lot like the Deir-el-Medineh too! To me anyway. A little.....
Yes, I have wondered about this monument too, Byron. Anyway it seems to be that the spangenhelm-like helmet is probably a gallic type helmet with a stylished cross-reinforcement (like those against dacian falx used in the dacian campaign)?
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
PHILODOX
Moderator
|
![[Image: fectio.png]](http://s226.photobucket.com/user/sattuviitana/media/fectio.png.html)
![[Image: smallparmarat.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/smallparmarat.jpg)
