Spartan Mora regiments at Battle of Plataea

[Mythos_Ruler]

Any idea what mora Amompharetos commanded at Plataea? I'm trying to get a handle on what mora shield blazon he and his men would have worn that day, standing alone on the fields of Plataea after refusing to retreat.

[Ghostmojo]

Any idea what mora Amompharetos commanded at Plataea? I'm trying to get a handle on what mora shield blazon he and his men would have worn that day, standing alone on the fields of Plataea after refusing to retreat.

I reckon it might have been a clenched fist with a single upright middle finger (directed at the Persians)!!! :lol: But seriously, there are some posters on this forum who have a deep interest in such unit insignia and sooner or later one will pipe up. Stefanos for one is apparently researching this area in some depth. He could probably give you some clues.

[Paullus Scipio]

It is not known that Amompheratos commanded a Mora...or even certain that the Spartans were organised into "Morai" at this time....Herodotus says he commanded the "Pitanate Lochos"....Thucydides and other commentators point out there was no such thing. Herodotus also calls him an 'Eiren' - a youngster newly qualified to serve in the phalanx, less than five years beyond manhood. Herodotus clearly has a story hopelessly mixed up.

What is all but certain is that Spartan units, whether Lochoi or Morai, did NOT have 'unit' shield blazons at the time of Plataea....there is not a shred of evidence for this, the opinions of Stefanos and others notwithstanding..... :? (

[hoplite14gr]

Sparta had four group dwellings (Komae).
Pitana was one of them. Sources mix ususally the names of units and sub units.
Amofaretos commanded the Pitanates lochos - the unit formed from those who dwelled in Pitana
It was considered senior to others and formed at the rightmost edge of the Sparta's Mora and therefore the whole Spartan Army.
That means that it had the priviledge to have the king and the Aigidae clan among its ranks. Pausanias says the Aigidae formed in the Royal stichos
Therefore Amomfaretos would probaly be position near the king's Bodyguards and carry the gorgoneio of Cahkioikos Athena as depicted in the Chiezi vase or the sample existing in the National Museum in Athens.

Kind regards

[Ghostmojo]

Sparta had four group dwellings (Komae).
Pitana was one of them. Sources mix ususally the names of units and sub units.
Amofaretos commanded the Pitanates lochos - the unit formed from those who dwelled in Pitana ...

I don't think it is as simple as that Stefanos. Aristophanes (perhaps) incorrectly said there were four lochoi at Plataia (based upon the four villages) but Wade-Gery states there would have been five regiments present in 479[size=85:2b0hp4kw]BC[/size] - based upon the alternate five village (komai/obe) version which gave us Edolos, Sinis, Arimas, Ploas and Mesoages named units. This five unit Obal army having replaced an earlier tripartite tribal army based upon the three Dorian sub-groups. Thukydides muddies the water by stating there were seven (without the Skiritai). Aristotle later chipped in with various quotes as to five lochoi, seven lochoi and six morai!!! :roll: A certain Photios claimed Aristotle said there were seven lochoi and that Thukydides spoke of five. Confused? You will be :lol: .

If Amompharetos was an Eirene (as Herodotos says he was) and the Eirenes were brigaded separately from the adult citizen troops (as they were) and this brigade was subdivided into four lochoi (as it might well have been) then it becomes a bit clearer. The Eirenes were organised along different lines from the main citizen morai. Herodotos also records the names of three other Eirene captains who fell valiantly at Plataia. It is tempting to assume he is remarking upon the four lochagoi of the Eirene regiment.

In any event that would suggest the battalions of the youth (in 479 at least) might have been named after four of the villages even if the main army morai weren't. Those villages were of course Limnai, Konooura, Mesoa and Pitana. Remote Amyklai also had obal status after 750[size=85:2b0hp4kw]BC[/size] (if not before), and there has also been reference to another - Arkaloi - but this is far less certain. Troops from Amyklai appeared in all morai a hundred years later when the army subdivisions no longer were geographic.

In short, I think the whole matter of Amompharetos and the Pitanate Lochos refers to the Eirene brigade, and not the main citizen army, at Plataia.

[Paullus Scipio]

Sparta had four group dwellings (Komae).
Pitana was one of them.Correct, there were at one time four villages/areas called 'obai'.(Pitana, Mesoa, Limnai and Konooura).Later Amyklae was added.However, an earlier Laconian sacred law refers to at least six 'Oba'. Herodotus equates these 'Oba' with 'demes' or 'komoi' in Attica. In any event there is no evidence that the Spartan Army ever contained units named after these districts.Aristophanes in the play 'Lysistrata' refers to Spartan women being divided into four lochoi, and an ancient anonymous commentator has written in the margin "the poet seems to have studied Lakonian matters rather carelessly for there are not four lochoi in Lakedaemon but five - Edolos,Sinis,Arimas,Ploas and Messoages - but Thucydides says seven, apart from the skiritae"
Sources mix ususally the names of units and sub units.see below
Amofaretos commanded the Pitanates lochosNot if he was an 'eiren' ! Even this is not certain for the text is corrupt and Amompheratus might instead have been a priest ['eirees'instead of 'eirens'.Herodotus says Amompheratus was buried among the 'eirens/eirees' [IX.85] - the unit formed from those who dwelled in PitanaAs stated, Herodotus is hopelessly confused about this matter. He even contradicts himself about his rank, calling him 'lochagos' ( Battalion commander aprox) at one point [IX.53.2] and a 'taxiarch' (Regimental/Brigade commander aprox) at another point.Thucydides flatly states [I.20.3]that"such a lochos has never existed"
It was considered senior to others and formed at the rightmost edge of the Sparta's Mora and therefore the whole Spartan Army.Impossible, since such a unit never existed !!!
That means that it had the priviledge to have the king and the Aigidae clan among its ranks.Evidence that this non-existent unit did so?
Pausanias says the Aigidae formed in the Royal stichos A 'stichos' was simply a file of men at this time. A 'lochos' was essentially a sub-unit of a larger one and later could even mean a file
Therefore Amomfaretos would probaly be position near the king's Bodyguards and carry the gorgoneio of Cahkioikos Athena as depicted in the Chiezi vase or the sample existing in the National Museum in Athens.Where is the evidence for this? The connection? The chain of logic/connection simply does not hold up!
All we can say with certainty ( from the votive figures found at the temple of Artemis Orthia ) is that from the seventh C BC onward, Spartans carried individual shield blazons. Aeschylus, at the time of the Persian wars, tells us that the character of each individual Hoplite was symbolised by his shield blazon [though not specifically referring to Spartans]. The famous 'lambda' is referred to by Xenophon for the 4thC BC and was probably not in use before 425BC when Sparta raised units of helots, likely state equipped, hence state owned shields marked "L" for Lakedaemon


Kind regards

[Paullus Scipio]

Ghostmojo/Howard wrote:

Aristophanes (perhaps) incorrectly said there were four lochoi at Plataia (based upon the four villages) ...er, no, not quite...see previous posting. Aristophanes refers to 'four lochoi of women' [presumed to be a reference to Spartan women] - a pun on the word lochos, a military unit, and lochos, a woman in childbed...an anonymous marginal note refers to five lochoi....but Wade-Gery states there would have been five regiments present in 479BC - based upon the alternate five village (komai/obe) version which gave us Edolos, Sinis, Arimas, Ploas and Mesoages named units. This five unit Obal army having replaced an earlier tripartite tribal army based upon the three Dorian sub-groups......er, no evidence as such for this either. Especially as an earlier reference to a sacred law refers to at least six 'Obai'.The best modern texts which try to unravel the confusing and contradictory references to Spartan units are J.F.Lazenby: "The Spartan Army"; Aris and Philips 1985 ISBN 0 85668 142 3 and J.K.Anderson: "Military Theory and Practice in the age of Xenophon" University of California Press 1970 ISBN 520 01564 9

Thukydides muddies the water by stating there were seven (without the Skiritai)....one of these 'units' not called a 'Mora', were the two brigaded 'lochoi' of Brasideoi and Neodamodeis - leaving six 'Morai' of Spartans, which agrees with Aristotle and Xenophon Aristotle later chipped in with various quotes as to five lochoi, seven lochoi ....no, seven is an error of a Byzantine lexicographer laterand six morai!!! A certain Photios claimed Aristotle said there were seven lochoi and that Thukydides spoke of five. Confused? You will be .Photios, a later Byzantine lexicographer, evidently reversed the names - it was Thucydides who referred to seven 'units' (6 Morai plus the Brasideoi/Neodamodeis) and Aristotle who referred to 'five' 'lochoi' at some point - but we don't know the context, so five may not have been Aristotle's total, and Aristotle evidently knew of six 'Morai'....
From all the confusion and errors, it would seem that the Spartan Army, from before the Persian Wars, most likely consisted of six 'Morai'[regiments/Brigades], made up of two 'Lochoi' [battalions]; each consisting of four 'pentekostyes'[companies] made up of four 'enomotia'[platoons] whose number varied depending on the age-classes called up and typically could be 32 or 36 strong, 40 if ALL age-classes were called up (rarely).Thus a full muster would consist of 4x40=160 per pentekostyes, 640 per 'lochos' and a full 'Mora' of 1280 men, and the full Army 7680 possibly plus 300 Hippeis ( if they were a separate unit) although they would seldom be at this strength.....



If Amompharetos was an Eirene ...or an eirees/priest, as many translations have it...
(as Herodotos says he was) and the Eirenes were brigaded separately from the adult citizen troops (as they were)...whoa ! ...What is the evidence for this? Thje evidence suggests that each 'enomotia'/platoon consisted of mixed age-groups
and this brigade was subdivided into four lochoi (as it might well have been) then it becomes a bit clearer. The Eirenes were organised along different lines from the main citizen morai. Herodotos also records the names of three other Eirene captains who fell valiantly at Plataia. ....Not quite! Herodotus says[IX.84] "The Lakedaemonians made three graves - one for the priests/'eirees' [Penguin translation - explaining why 'eirenes' is highly unlikely], amongst whom were Posidonius, Amompheratus, Philocyon and Kallikrates; another for the rest of the Spartans; and a third for the Helots. The Tegeans buried all their dead in a common grave; so did the Athenians...."
It is tempting to assume he is remarking upon the four lochagoi of the Eirene regiment....not so; amongst whom clearly indicates there were more than four 'eirees/eirenes'...and there is no evidence I know of for an "Eirene Regiment/Brigade"

In any event that would suggest the battalions of the youth (in 479 at least) might have been named after four of the villages even if the main army morai weren't. Those villages were of course Limnai, Konooura, Mesoa and Pitana. Remote Amyklai also had obal status after 750BC (if not before), and there has also been reference to another - Arkaloi - but this is far less certain. Troops from Amyklai appeared in all morai a hundred years later when the army subdivisions no longer were geographic.Most unlikely - no evidence for this hypothesis, and see previous post regarding 'Obai', of which it is likely there were more than six...

In short, I think the whole matter of Amompharetos and the Pitanate Lochos refers to the Eirene brigade, and not the main citizen army, at Plataia...Again what evidence is there for an 'Eirene' regiment? That is not how the Spartan system worked. One very outside possibility does exist however. We know that later, following the advent of peltasts into Greek warfare, one Spartan tactic was to send out the younger 'age classes' from the Phalanx to chase them off. Just possibly (but very unlikely) an 'ad hoc' sub-unit ( i.e. 'lochos') was put together at Plataea of men of the younger age classes/eirenes to act as rearguard, because being young and fit, they would have the best chance of escaping pursuing Persians, and it is this 'ad hoc' unit that is commanded by Amompheratus, and becomes the subject of the legendary anecdote......

[Ghostmojo]

OK - fair enough - apologies PS for some of my approach which should have more clearly stated a hypothesis/es I am inclined towards ...

Ghostmojo/Howard wrote:

Aristophanes (perhaps) incorrectly said there were four lochoi at Plataia (based upon the four villages) ...er, no, not quite...see previous posting. Aristophanes refers to 'four lochoi of women' [presumed to be a reference to Spartan women] - a pun on the word lochos, a military unit, and lochos, a woman in childbed...an anonymous marginal note refers to five lochoi....but Wade-Gery states there would have been five regiments present in 479BC - based upon the alternate five village (komai/obe) version which gave us Edolos, Sinis, Arimas, Ploas and Mesoages named units. This five unit Obal army having replaced an earlier tripartite tribal army based upon the three Dorian sub-groups......er, no evidence as such for this either. Especially as an earlier reference to a sacred law refers to at least six 'Obai'.The best modern texts which try to unravel the confusing and contradictory references to Spartan units are J.F.Lazenby: "The Spartan Army"; Aris and Philips 1985 ISBN 0 85668 142 3 and J.K.Anderson: "Military Theory and Practice in the age of Xenophon" University of California Press 1970 ISBN 520 01564 9

Firstly, excuse my shorthand approach PS to this first point since, whilst being aware of the Aristophanes/Lysistrata aspect of the comments - I was trying to cut to the chase numerically - I should have been more clear in that jump :oops: . Having said that I think we are all agreed upon the four central obai/komoi of Sparta town and the nearby (5km) fifth village. I think also it seems clear that Herodotos' seeming assumption that Sparta might have had deme-based units was arrived upon due to his over-familiarity with Athens' military structure, and he should have possibly been more circumspect in assuming other (especially Dorian) states followed similar lines. As far as I can determine the Spartan military never based its regimental/divisional units upon the obai. The numeric aspect is a curious one and by no means unimportant because the Lakedaimonian attachment to 3,9,27,81 is a recurring one and clearly an alternate system to the decimal one elsewhere (perhaps based upon the Spartan lack of monetary system). Certain religious festivals contained elements with numeric aspects to them and it may derive from the three sub-tribes. The latter as a basis for a tripartitie (much earlier) army division based upon Hylleis, Pamphyloi & Dymanes is neither uniquely my own view nor a new one, and there is a certain amount of circumstantial evidence (albeit very fragmentary like Tyrtaios) suggesting it. I myself think it is likely that the 300 originally derived as 100 from each H,P & D aristocratic families - since the Hippeis were clearly from the higher echelon in society. There were references to the King's bodyguard as being 100 as opposed to 300 and perhaps that dichotomy is resolved on that basis?

I touched upon the six obai/komai issue myself. It was well-believed and we have no reason to doubt it, that there were 6 morai from Lykourgan reformation times (whenever they were). I admit to not having my copy of Lazenby to hand (I don't actually possess the actual volume (I wish it would get reprinted) - just photocopies and copious notes) and therefore cannot reference it immediately. However, since I don't actually subscribe to the (later period) obal-linked units I don't think it matters. The unit names I quoted from Wade-Gery as we know (excepting perhaps 'Mesoages') don't appear to have any obvious connection with the village names anyway. I do think, however, that again it might be the usual mixing up of Lochoi and Morai nomenclature that occurs (frequently), and those 6 units could well have been 3 x 2 structured regiments. At the period we know most about the morai was perhaps divided into 2 lochoi - later apparently 4 lochoi. It is conceivable if by no means proven or established that an earlier tripartite situation might have occured with 3 morai divided into 6 lochoi that might have had some connection with these (sacred law) 6 obai/phylai. The strength and value of the Dorian sub-groups should not be undervalued in my opinion. There have even been commentators (Wade-Gery again) that suggest (in Lakonia at least) there might have been five (later) groups - which led to the five villages and even five ephors (and five agathoergoi). I'm not sure I buy that one and I don't think many do? Pindar mentions the 3 sub-tribes as still persisting after 478[size=85:hcoexllm]BC[/size]. I think there is some mileage in allowing for this triple divisor aspect of things (at least in early archaic times).

Thukydides muddies the water by stating there were seven (without the Skiritai)....one of these 'units' not called a 'Mora', were the two brigaded 'lochoi' of Brasideoi and Neodamodeis - leaving six 'Morai' of Spartans, which agrees with Aristotle and Xenophon

Indeed, and it is also worth commenting that we need to be careful about which period we discuss. Plataia is a different ballgame to later Peloponnesian War scenarios whereby the former had no Brasidieoi or Neodamodeis yet in existence. Some ancient authors also seem to make there analysis based upon their own period when previous periods might have been considerably different. The Spartan army was reorganised several times between Lykourgos and Kleomenes III, as we all know.

Aristotle later chipped in with various quotes as to five lochoi, seven lochoi ....no, seven is an error of a Byzantine lexicographer laterand six morai!!! A certain Photios claimed Aristotle said there were seven lochoi and that Thoukydides spoke of five. Confused? You will be .Photios, a later Byzantine lexicographer, evidently reversed the names - it was Thucydides who referred to seven 'units' (6 Morai plus the Brasideoi/Neodamodeis) and Aristotle who referred to 'five' 'lochoi' at some point - but we don't know the context, so five may not have been Aristotle's total, and Aristotle evidently knew of six 'Morai'....
From all the confusion and errors, it would seem that the Spartan Army, from before the Persian Wars, most likely consisted of six 'Morai'[regiments/Brigades], made up of two 'Lochoi' [battalions]; each consisting of four 'pentekostyes'[companies] made up of four 'enomotia'[platoons] whose number varied depending on the age-classes called up and typically could be 32 or 36 strong, 40 if ALL age-classes were called up (rarely).Thus a full muster would consist of 4x40=160 per pentekostyes, 640 per 'lochos' and a full 'Mora' of 1280 men, and the full Army 7680 possibly plus 300 Hippeis ( if they were a separate unit) although they would seldom be at this strength.....

And are there not references to the Hippeis as actually fighting with/within/part of the first Morai? I must admit to being not to clear about this one. The 300 figure does not accord easily with later morai subdivisions into lochoi, pentekostyes etc. where the numbers are more usually 512, 256, etc. depending upon age call-ups/phalanx depths. I'm curious to how others view this particular anomaly.

However, and I am seriously hypothesising now - perhaps at some earlier (prehistoric) point the units were closer to rounded hundred figures? That would accord with the Hippeis being traditionally 300 and perhaps even the Skiritai being 600? The Hippeis then would be one of the two lochoi forming the first mora? Later when the army was reorganised upon the enomotia etc. age call-up process the numbers would have been more specifically divisible by 4. At this point perhaps the whole army changes except the Hippeis and Skiritai? As I say - a real hypothetical jump there from me - but again not impossible.

If Amompharetos was an Eirene ...or an eirees/priest, as many translations have it...(as Herodotos says he was) and the Eirenes were brigaded separately from the adult citizen troops (as they were)...whoa ! ...What is the evidence for this? Thje evidence suggests that each 'enomotia'/platoon consisted of mixed age-groups and this brigade was subdivided into four lochoi (as it might well have been) then it becomes a bit clearer. The Eirenes were organised along different lines from the main citizen morai. Herodotos also records the names of three other Eirene captains who fell valiantly at Plataia. ....Not quite! Herodotus says[IX.84] "The Lakedaemonians made three graves - one for the priests/'eirees' [Penguin translation - explaining why 'eirenes' is highly unlikely], amongst whom were Posidonius, Amompheratus, Philocyon and Kallikrates; another for the rest of the Spartans; and a third for the Helots. The Tegeans buried all their dead in a common grave; so did the Athenians...." It is tempting to assume he is remarking upon the four lochagoi of the Eirene regiment....not so; amongst whom clearly indicates there were more than four 'eirees/eirenes'...and there is no evidence I know of for an "Eirene Regiment/Brigade"

I said tempting to assume. The Penguin translation (which I also have) suggests the three graves may well have been Spartans, Perioikoi and Helots. I'm not sure I buy a mass grave for all the priests per se - although perhaps on this occasion the Eirenes were brigaded separately and the priests translation is also incorrect? I can't see any other way to explain the Pitanate Lochos assertion by Herodotos. Herodotos does have the distinction of having spoken to Spartans of the time. Thoukydides did not.

In any event that would suggest the battalions of the youth (in 479 at least) might have been named after four of the villages even if the main army morai weren't. Those villages were of course Limnai, Konooura, Mesoa and Pitana. Remote Amyklai also had obal status after 750BC (if not before), and there has also been reference to another - Arkaloi - but this is far less certain. Troops from Amyklai appeared in all morai a hundred years later when the army subdivisions no longer were geographic.Most unlikely - no evidence for this hypothesis, and see previous post regarding 'Obai', of which it is likely there were more than six...

Unlikely but not impossible? Especially if we consider the Spartan Army's Eirenes were barracked closer to the town and not spread along the Hyakinthian Way. As I say I was trying to establish a link between them and Pitana.

In short, I think the whole matter of Amompharetos and the Pitanate Lochos refers to the Eirene brigade, and not the main citizen army, at Plataia...Again what evidence is there for an 'Eirene' regiment? That is not how the Spartan system worked. One very outside possibility does exist however. We know that later, following the advent of peltasts into Greek warfare, one Spartan tactic was to send out the younger 'age classes' from the Phalanx to chase them off. Just possibly (but very unlikely) an 'ad hoc' sub-unit ( i.e. 'lochos') was put together at Plataea of men of the younger age classes/eirenes to act as rearguard, because being young and fit, they would have the best chance of escaping pursuing Persians, and it is this 'ad hoc' unit that is commanded by Amompheratus, and becomes the subject of the legendary anecdote......

Which I suppose is probably what I was getting at when discussing Plataia and Amompharetos' Pitanate unit in particular - as opposed to the army in general (at that time - or indeed any other).

Cheers

HJ

[Paralus]

...one of these 'units' not called a 'Mora', were the two brigaded 'lochoi' of Brasideoi and Neodamodeis - leaving six 'Morai' of Spartans, which agrees with Aristotle and Xenophone

That is one interpretation but the text is, of course, open to a different interpretation. Thucydides actually describes the Sciritae as a separate unit. He also lists – separately – the “soldiers of Brasidas from Thrace, and the Neodamodeis with them”. It is worth remembering that the “soldiers of Brasidas from Thrace” were, originally, 700 hoplites (ignoring the Peloponnesian mercenaries). Adding “the neodamodeis with them” makes for something rather larger than a lochos or mora – unless one supposes decimation of the Brasideans or very severe loss. More likely two units as Paul Mac says. After these separately listed units come “the Lacedaemonians themselves, company (lochos) after company…”, the Maenalians and “on the right wing the Tegeans with a few of the Lacedaemonians at the extremity”. The clear implication is that the Brasideans and neodamodeis are not numbered as “Lacedaemonians themselves”.

There follows the (in?)famous calculation of the Spartan numbers based on the seven lochoi present.

Whatever one makes of the above Agis, as the Mantineans reached “far beyond the Sciritae”, ordered the latter as well as the Brasideans to move left to counter the large overlap. In order to cover the resulting gap Agis orders two polemarchs to take two companies (duo lochos) "taken from the right wing". These lochoi can only have come from the Spartans on the right wing beyond the Tegeans.

So, there were either four lochoi in the centre and two on the right wing or there were seven units of the “Lacedaemonians themselves” in the centre and “a few Lacedaemonians” (= two lochoi) on the right wing.

Nothing like clarity…though it does fit with Thucydides' description of the Spartan army being the larger of the two.

[Paullus Scipio]

Paralus/Michael wrote:

It is worth remembering that the “soldiers of Brasidas from Thrace” were, originally, 700 hoplites (ignoring the Peloponnesian mercenaries). Adding “the neodamodeis with them” makes for something rather larger than a lochos or mora – unless one supposes decimation of the Brasideans or very severe loss.

...perhaps a little more detail/explanation is called for. Thucydides himself frankly admits "...but it would be impossible for me to give the exact numbers either of the whole armies or of the various divisions on either side. The secrecy with which their affairs are conducted meant that no-one knew the numbers of the spartans, and for the rest it was impossible to rely on the estimates given, since it is human nature to boast about the size of one's own forces..." He then goes on to estimate these. On that basis, the Brasideoi and Neodamodeis together apparently number a mere 512, which is clearly wrong since as you have pointed out the Brasideoi alone originally numbered 700 ( roughly 'lochos' size). Thucydides numbers for the Spartans/Lacedaemonians would then be a mere 3,072 - an all but impossibly small number. There are reasons to believe that Thucydides confused 'Morai' and 'Lochoi' here, and so is out by factor two.
Thus there were in fact something like 6 'Morai', 12 'lochoi' of Lacedaemonians present, numbering some 6,144 men plus the 2 'lochoi' of 'Brasideoi' and 'Neodamodeis', equivalent to a seventh 'Mora' and adding another 1200 or so men.

Ghostmojo/Howard wrote:

And are there not references to the Hippeis as actually fighting with/within/part of the first Morai? I must admit to being not to clear about this one. The 300 figure does not accord easily with later morai subdivisions into lochoi, pentekostyes etc. where the numbers are more usually 512, 256, etc. depending upon age call-ups/phalanx depths. I'm curious to how others view this particular anomaly.

...I don't believe so. There are references to the Spartan 'Agema' ( lit:leading unit) which at this time was literally the vanguard/leading unit without being 'elite/guards', but by Macedonian times the 'Agema' of the 'Hypaspists' were an elite inner bodyguard, hence modern writers confusedly assuming that 'Agema' and 'Hippeis' were the same. As you point out, the 300 simply does not fit into the 'Mora/Lochos' structure, and whereas the normal 'lochoi/Morai' were made up of all the age classes, it appears that the 'Hippeis' were all "men in their prime" i.e. young, hand-picked by the 'Hippagretai' ( 'Constitution of the Lakedaemonians' IV.3)
It would appear Thucydides has overlooked these, who were presumably around the King in the centre at Mantinea. The Lakedaemonian total would therefore appear to be aprox 6 x 1,024 = 6,144 Lakedaemonians in six 'Morai'; plus roughly 1,200 or more in the 'lochoi' of the 'Brasideoi' and 'Neodamodeis' brigaded together to be equivalent to a seventh 'Mora' plus the 300 'Hippeis' making roughly 7,500- 7,750 or so.

Thucydides gives no numbers for the Allies from Heraia, Mainalia and Tegea, but the former two would be unlikely to raise more than 500 or so Hoplites each at most and Tegea could raise roughly 2,500. Diodorus gives 3,000 for the Spartan Allies which corresponds well with this, giving us some 10-11,000 in the Allied Spartan Army.

For the reasons set out above, Thucydides gives no figures for the Mantinean allied Army. There are reasons for thinking the Mantineans numbered roughly 3,000 (Diodorus XII.78.4 and Lysias XXXIV.7 ), the Athenians around 1,000 plus 300 cavalry, plus 1,000 'picked' Argives, then 3-4,000 or so other Argives, then a few hundreds each of Arcadians and the men of Kleonoi and Orneai, giving roughly 9-10,000 which accords well with Thucydides observation that "..the Spartan Army looked the larger.."

Paralus wrote:

Whatever one makes of the above Agis, as the Mantineans reached “far beyond the Sciritae”, ordered the latter as well as the Brasideans to move left to counter the large overlap. In order to cover the resulting gap Agis orders two polemarchs to take two companies (duo lochos) "taken from the right wing". These lochoi can only have come from the Spartans on the right wing beyond the Tegeans.

...the former statement is undoubtedly correct, but the latter one is highly unlikely. Agis orders two 'Polemarchs' ( i.e. 'Mora' commanders/Brigadiers) called Hipponoidas and Aristocles, to detach two 'Lochoi' - in other words, each of them to send half their men - to plug the gap caused when Agis orders the Brasideoi/Neodamodeis to move left ( the Spartan allies on their right heavily overlap the Athenians, but the Mantineans on their right overlap the Brasideoi/Neodamodeis). Thucydides has already told us that all the Spartans form the left and centre, with the Sciritae and Brasideoi/Neodamodeis the extreme left units, save for "a few Spartans at the very [right flank] end". Now, there can hardly have been a third of the Spartan Army (whether 'Morai' or Thucydides 'Lochoi') on the right flank for they are hardly "a few Spartans", nor is it logical, given that the armies were about to meet, to order those furthest away ( on the right flank) to re-inforce the left. Thucydides can only realistically mean 'two lochoi' from the 'right wing' of the Lakedaemonians themselves i.e the centre ( and presumably the Allies would close up to their left, to close the 2x 128 = 256 yard gap). In the event, since both armies had begun their advance, the two Polemarchs refused Agis' order but the Sciritae/Brasideoi/Neodamodeis moved left as ordered, opening up a gap. A near diaster ensued as inevitably the Mantineans and picked Argives broke through this gap, roughly handled the leftmost 'Mora' taking it in flank, and some swept on to the lakedaemonian camp, killing some of the 'older men' guarding it. Meanwhile the Spartan Centre, led by Agis and the 300 'Hippeis' put the 'older' Argives and the Argive 'Five Lochoi' to flight, and then in turn the Athenians fled. Thucydides tells us that "most of them, in fact, did not stand up to the first shock, but gave way immediately, some being actually trampled underfoot in their anxiety to get away before the Spartan enemy reached them". Agis promptly wheeled to the aid of his beleagured left flank , and the Mantineans and picked Argives also fled. Spartan losses were around 300 ( mostly from the Sciritae and Brasideoi/Neodamodeis together with some 'older men' of the camp guard), their Allies negligible. The Mantineans lost 200, the Argives, Orneans and Kleonaens 700, and the Athenians and Aeginetans 200, including both their Generals ( who presumably did not turn tail quick enough, and were probably too old to run fast (!)
As for the Polemarchs Hipponoidas and Aristocles, who had the difficult decision to obey orders and risk chaos/destruction, or to disobey orders for the better good of the Army; disobedience was as much a serious thing then as now. They paid the inevitable price and were cashiered for 'cowardice and disobedience' but were not executed, and were lucky to be only banished from Sparta ( perhaps a candid recognition that they had in fact acted correctly)....

[Paralus]

...perhaps a little more detail/explanation is called for. Thucydides himself frankly admits "...but it would be impossible for me to give the exact numbers either of the whole armies or of the various divisions on either side. The secrecy with which their affairs are conducted meant that no-one knew the numbers of the spartans, and for the rest it was impossible to rely on the estimates given, since it is human nature to boast about the size of one's own forces..." He then goes on to estimate these. On that basis, the Brasideoi and Neodamodeis together apparently number a mere 512...

No. Thucydides clearly lists the Sciritae, Brasideans and Neodamodeis as separate units and then goes on to list the "Lacedaemonians themselves" (5.67.1):

In this battle the left wing was composed of the Sciritae, who in a Lacedaemonians army have always that post to themselves alone; next to these were the soldiers of Brasidas from Thrace, and the Neodamodeis with them; then came the Lacedaemonians themselves, company after company, with the Arcadians of Heraea at their side. After these were the Maenalians, and on the right wing the Tegeans with a few of the Lacedaemonians at the extremity; their cavalry being posted upon the two wings. Such was the Lacedaemonian formation.

Thus he does not include these units with the “Lacedaemonians themselves”.

A number of things are clear: the Brasideans and the Neodamodeis are separate units – from each other as well as the “Lacedaemonians themselves” and that there were, apparently, “a few Lacedaemonians” on the right wing.

Agis orders two 'Polemarchs' ( i.e. 'Mora' commanders/Brigadiers) called Hipponoidas and Aristocles, to detach two 'Lochoi' - in other words, each of them to send half their men - to plug the gap caused when Agis orders the Brasideoi/Neodamodeis to move left ( the Spartan allies on their right heavily overlap the Athenians, but the Mantineans on their right overlap the Brasideoi/Neodamodeis).

Thucydides has already told us that all the Spartans form the left and centre, with the Sciritae and Brasideoi/Neodamodeis the extreme left units, save for "a few Spartans at the very [right flank] end". Now, there can hardly have been a third of the Spartan Army (whether 'Morai' or Thucydides 'Lochoi') on the right flank for they are hardly "a few Spartans", nor is it logical, given that the armies were about to meet, to order those furthest away ( on the right flank) to re-inforce the left. Thucydides can only realistically mean 'two lochoi' from the 'right wing' of the Lakedaemonians themselves i.e the centre ( and presumably the Allies would close up to their left, to close the 2x 128 = 256 yard gap).

As the armies were about to meet it mattered little that the “Spartans” who moved to fill the gap came from the right wing or – as you’d suggest – the “right wing” of the centre. Fact was that the Mantineans overlapped the Spartan left by the two “lochos” (or whatever “unit” you wish to use) moved to counter that overlap – the Sciritae and Brasideans – who were then replaced by two “lochos” from “the right wing”. Two plus two fills a gap no? And, unless the Brasideans had suffered severely in Thrace, these units are 600 men each (depending upon Brasidean numbers).

On your reading Agis wished to open a two lochos (insert your “unit” here in Pythonesque tone) gap in his centre right. The man was obviously a goose. It makes far more sense that he attempted to transfer units from his – now – unopposed right wing.

Thucydides has already admitted the difficulty in assessing Spartan numbers. You have pointed out the possible confusion of unit sizes. It is highly likely that Thucydides had no idea of the Spartan numbers on the right – a position they regularly occupied in their arrays.

It is totally illogical, though, that Agis would remove two lochoi from his centre to shore up his extending left. He was a Spartan king after all.

So, in the end, how many Spartan units (lochoi or mora) were at Mantinea?

[Paullus Scipio]

My dear Paralus, I'm afraid you need to go back and read your Thucydides a little more carefully!

Paralus wrote:

No. Thucydides clearly lists the Sciritae, Brasideans and Neodamodeis as separate units and then goes on to list the "Lacedaemonians themselves" (5.67.1):

No ? I wouldn't be so certain if I were you.....

Thucydides 5.68.3

There were seven regiments in the field without counting the Sciritae, so, the six Lochoi/Morai plus the Brasideoi/Neodamodeiswho numbered six hundred men: in each Regiment which Thucydides calls 'lochoi' there were four Pentecostyes, and in the Pentecosty four Enomoties. The first rank of the Enomoty was composed of four soldiers: as to the depth, although they had not been all drawn up alike, but as each captain chose, they were generally ranged eight deep; the first rank along the whole line, exclusive of the Sciritae,re-iterating that the 'regiment' of Brasideoi/Neodamodeis are included consisted of four hundred and forty-eight men.

..so each of the seven units consist of 64 x 8= 512 men, ergo the 'Brasideoi/Neodamodeis' together only numbered 512 according to Thucydides, who clearly regards them as a single unit ( "On the left wing were the Sciritae,...next to them were the soldiers of Brasidas and the Neodamodeis....Then came the Spartans themselves, regiment after regiment.." he is expounding them from left to right, unit/regiment after unit/regiment ) As you have pointed out, the 'Brasideoi' alone set out numbering some 700, so Thucydides is clearly mistaken. Furthermore, as you have also pointed out, their place in the line was to be taken by two regiments/lochoi, so you are right (they were separate 'lochoi', and Thucydides is wrong! D lol: ( His fundamental error being that he thought 'lochoi' were the largest Spartan unit when in fact above them was the 'Mora' )

A number of things are clear: the Brasideans and the Neodamodeis are separate units – from each other as well as the “Lacedaemonians themselves” and that there were, apparently, “a few Lacedaemonians” on the right wing.

...agreed, though we must bear in mind that Thucydides (wrongly) considers them together equivalent to one Spartan "regiment"...

As the armies were about to meet it mattered little that the “Spartans” who moved to fill the gap came from the right wing or – as you’d suggest – the “right wing” of the centre. Fact was that the Mantineans overlapped the Spartan left by the two “lochos” (or whatever “unit” you wish to use)..not necessarily - Agis might have intended to extend far enough to overlap the mantineans in turn moved to counter that overlap – the Sciritae and Brasideans – who were then replaced by two “lochos” from “the right wing”. Two plus two fills a gap no? And, unless the Brasideans had suffered severely in Thrace, these units are 600 men each (depending upon Brasidean numbers).

...so replacing them with two 'lochoi' makes sense, and we are again agreed....but this is where the problem of Thucydides mistake starts. If the seven Spartan
units, which Thucydides calls 'lochoi' and which number 512 are the whole army, then it numbers a mere 3584, and the Spartans cannot have "looked the larger Army" unless you do a lot of fudging with the other side's figures.... If on the other hand we accept that Thucydides was wrong ( and his earlier statement that it was "impossible" for him to give exact numbers implies he himself realised there was something wrong), and didn't realise that the seven Spartan units were not 512 strong 'lochoi', but in fact 1024 strong 'Morai', then all is resolved, as I set out in my previous post - and I hasten to add that I am not alone in postulating this .

On your reading Agis wished to open a two lochos (insert your “unit” here in Pythonesque tone) gap in his centre right. The man was obviously a goose.Yup! ...as the two Polemarchs realised.... It makes far more sense that he attempted to transfer units from his – now – unopposed right wing.
No, for two reasons - he would want to retain his right wing overlap - especially as he had the larger army; and the armies were already in their final advance and thus only a few hundred yards apart. If they came from the 'right wing' of the Lakedaemonians they had some 9 'lochoi' to pass including the Neodamodeis on a frontage of ( by my reckoning on 'open' and 'close' order) of around 1,000 yards; if from the extreme right wing then almost double that, or if we take 8 deep as being in close order (which they woudn't have been at that point in time anyway - advancing prior to the charge - then half those distances i.e. 500 yards if from the Lakedaemonian right, almost double that if from the extreme right wing. In either event it was a big ask - and if from the extreme right wing, utterly impossible.
Furthermore, since Thucydides tells us"Then came the Spartans themselves, regiment after regiment. Next were the Arcadians...[and other allies].On the right wing were the Tegeans, with a few Spartans at the very end." So not even one Spartan 'lochoi' on the extreme right wing, let alone two, a third of Thucydides Spartan army ! Thucydides can only mean from the right of the Lakedaemonian 'lochoi'

Thucydides has already admitted the difficulty in assessing Spartan numbers. You have pointed out the possible confusion of unit sizes. It is highly likely that Thucydides had no idea of the Spartan numbers on the right – a position they regularly occupied in their arrays.
He still wouldn't have called a third of the Lakedaemonians, even on his diminished numbers, "a few Spartans"...your argument does not hold up at all...

It is totally illogical, though, that Agis would remove two lochoi from his centre to shore up his extending left...no it isn't, if only for the 'distance' reason I have given... He was a Spartan king after all....and one whose order was so blatantly bad that two senior Polemarchs/Brigadiers independently( because each was with his unit ) disobeyed - knowing in full the likely consequences

So, in the end, how many Spartan units (lochoi or mora) were at Mantinea? A rhetorical question no doubt ....but the most likely answer is set out in my previous post !!! :wink: :wink:

[Paralus]

The discussion has been going on for decades - and likely will continue to do so. You say mora he says lochoi: let’s call the whole thing off.

The source material – Thucydides included – displays a scant regard for our interest in military structure and the changes made to it over the classical period. That the Spartan army structure altered over time was made certain by diminishing numbers of homoioi. Thucydides himself hints at same with his description of the Lacedaemonians taken at Sphacteria (Periocoi brigaded with homoioi) and the appearance – unheralded – at Mantinea of “units” of Neodamodeis.

Whilst there are mora in Xenophon’s Hellenica they are, by the time of Epaminondas’ invasion of Lacedaemon, no longer in existence. At this time there are only twelve lochoi. He felt no need to enlighten us on the change – seemingly he expected his readers to know.

At Mantinea it is likely that Thucydides – or his source – utilised the terminology familiar to other Greeks, that is, “lochoi”. Mora, to my knowledge, is a term used by Xenophon to describe only Spartan armies.

My dear Paralus, I'm afraid you need to go back and read your Thucydides a little more carefully!

I have - each time I read it I can come up with another permutation!

I do, though, feel that Thucydides meant to convey a couple of things:

• The Sciritae, Brasideans and Neodamodeis are distinct units. His language (or the rendering of it in English) can be confusing. Yes he enumerates the line from left to right - that is clear. What also is clear (to me) is the fact that his listing makes plain that the Sciritae, Brasideans and Neodamodies are an entirely different species of infantry animal to "the Lacedaemonians themselves" – else there is no need for the clear distinction.
  
  Thucydides, in his calculations, excludes a part of those clearly delineated as a separate species (the Sciritae). He also, to my mind, excluded the others who, just as clearly, were not part of “Lacedaemonians themselves”: the Brasideans and freed helots.

Now, I realise you will disagree with that but it seems to me that if the Brasideans and Neodamodeis are to be included as Lacedaemonians – when they have just been clearly excluded as such – then we are in a position where we cannot believe much of what Thucydides writes for he contradicts himself internally.

When it comes to Agis’ command decisions, the argument is just as intractable. Firstly he is surprised by the Allies’ readiness to take the field. Secondly, though he has the larger army (which Thucydides states twice), he is overly concerned over his left being outflanked whilst his right overlapped “still farther beyond the Athenians”. At this point he moves two “units”/lochoi (the Sciritae and Brasideans) to the left. You would have it that he may have “intended to extend far enough to overlap the mantineans in turn”. On this Thucydides is rather plain; he moved them to “make the line even with the Mantineans” (5.71.3). Further, as Thucydides says, he wished the polemarchs to take two “units”/lochoi from “the he right wing; thinking that his right would still be strong enough to spare” the loss of such “units”/lochoi. All this while Thucydides has been describing wings (“horn”) and I find it unlikely that he thought the Spartan line had yet another “horn” or wing in the middle of the line.

The description of the lines closing should not be taken too literally. There is time, for example, whilst these lines are on the point of joining battle for generals to harangue their troops with exhortations and speeches. We have no idea how close the lines were and Thucydides’ narrative – as with most of the ancient sources – gives this something of a Hollywood timelessness: anything can and, occasionally, does happen whilst the lines approach one another. Indeed, Thucydides has already told us (70.1) that the armies had “met”.

Agis may not rank as the greatest of Spartan kings and he was under a cloud. Further, he had ten “Spartans of the officer class” who rode shotgun on him. I would doubt these would allow a command for two “units”/lochoi to be removed from the centre of the line to fill a gap created on the left. If the order went out it was to the right wing of the army.

The polemarchs clearly disobeyed. The reason may well be as you say (removing troops from the centre). It is just as likely that, in the march, the polemarchs decided removing troops from the right wing was just as suicidal – for the very reasons you mention (time, distance) or the fact that they in no way wished to surrender their demonstrable advantage over the Athenians.

[Kineas]

I strongly urge you all to read "The Spartan State in War and Peace" by Prof Paul Cartledge (Cambridge Univ). He provides what I think is a balanced overview of the Spartan war machine at Plataea and afterwords--and he is gently dismissive of Thucydides. Thucydides used to be view as the greatest of Greek Classical historians, but the bloom is off the rose--and many of the historians we all quote here--from VD Hanson to Lazenby--have begun a steady shift towards accepting Herodotus on many subjects and away from Thucydides, who can be demonstrated (at least) to have deliberately falsified for political reasons.

I'm not some radical proposing a wholesale abandonment of Thucydides--but I think that too many arguments on this forum are largely based on reading him in English as a sort of "sole-source" on hoplite warfare. I have seen it argued here that Thucydides was a veteran hoplite himself, and I can only shrug and return that all we know is that he was once a general--and that may, in fact, have been the sum of his experience.

Back to shield construction...

[Paullus Scipio]

Paralus wrote:

The source material – Thucydides included – displays a scant regard for our interest in military structure and the changes made to it over the classical period.Indeed...if they weren't so vague/ambiguous we wouldn't be having this lively debate! :wink: That the Spartan army structure altered over time was made certain by diminishing numbers of homoioi.To continue your musical witticisms; "It ain't necessarily so..o..o !"
That the numbers of 'Homioi' declined is undeniable... but it is more likely that the army always had a presence of other Spartans who were not 'full citizens'/Homioi/Peers/Equals/Aristocracy e.g. 'Hypomeiones' and others. As the number of 'Homioi'/aristocrats declined, the numbers of 'non-Homioi' - but still Spartans - in the army will have increased... Thucydides himself hints at same with his description of the Lacedaemonians taken at Sphacteria (Periocoi brigaded with homoioi)....er, no, actually - there is NO mention of Perioikoi IIRC. Thucydides simply says "Altogether 440 Hoplites had crossed over, and of these 292 were taken alive to Athens.....About 120 of the prisoners were of the Spartan Officer class (Homioi)"; the remainder will have been 'other' Spartans, for they are drawn 'by lot from all the lochoi' (Thuc IV.8.9), which probably means 1 'enomotia'/platoon drawn from each of the 12 'lochoi'/battalions ( perioikoi did not serve in the peloponnese as a rule, nor in the Spartan Army itself, save for certain Aristocratic 'volunteers' who were permitted to accompany the King on campaign - but I don't want to digress into another debate about perioikoi ! :wink: ) and the appearance – unheralded – at Mantinea of “units” of Neodamodeis.Not unheralded at all ! Sparta, when unsupported by Persian Gold, was a relatively 'poor' state and always had trouble raising money to pay mercenaries. They therefore, reluctantly, turned to the much cheaper alternative of equipping 'Helots'( serfs) in return for a promise of freedom, especially for campaigns far away. ('Real' Spartan armies seldom ventured out of the Peloponnese). The first thousand or so 'neodamodeis' were raised in 425 BC, and later we hear of a force of two thousand 'neodamodeis' . A force of 700 were raised in 421 to accompany Brasidas to Thrace, and it is these who gain the name 'Brasideoi', as you have noted. So they are hardly "unheralded" at Mantinea in 418 BC. After their service they were all duly 'freed' and settled on the borders of Lakonia...

Whilst there are mora in Xenophon’s Hellenica they are, by the time of Epaminondas’ invasion of Lacedaemon, no longer in existence. At this time there are only twelve lochoi.It is correct that Xenophon makes reference to 6 'Morai' throughout most of the Hellenika, but in book VII refers to 12 'lochoi', however they are essentially synonyms - there were almost certainly 6 Morai ' divided into 12 'lochoi' for most of the Spartan Army's existence. In book VII, Xenophon refers to 'Polemarchs'/commanders of a 'Mora'(equivalent to a modern Brigadier), so 'Morai' must have still existed (Hellenika VII.1.17 and 25), as well as 'lochagoi' ( lochos/battalion commanders, equivalent to a modern Lt Col. He felt no need to enlighten us on the change – seemingly he expected his readers to know.No need for comment, because there was no change, essentially !!

At Mantinea it is likely that Thucydides – or his source – utilised the terminology familiar to other Greeks, that is, “lochoi”. Mora, to my knowledge, is a term used by Xenophon to describe only Spartan armies.

...Agreed! That is a likely explanation for Thucydides - or his source- getting confused. We only hear of Spartan armies using 'Morai'/ Brigades... though Athenian 'Taxeis' may have been larger units/brigades than 'Lochoi'...

The Sciritae, Brasideans and Neodamodeis are distinct units. His language (or the rendering of it in English) can be confusing. Yes he enumerates the line from left to right - that is clear. What also is clear (to me) is the fact that his listing makes plain that the Sciritae, Brasideans and Neodamodies are an entirely different species of infantry animal to "the Lacedaemonians themselves" – else there is no need for the clear distinction.

Thucydides, in his calculations, excludes a part of those clearly delineated as a separate species (the Sciritae). He also, to my mind, excluded the others who, just as clearly, were not part of “Lacedaemonians themselves”: the Brasideans and freed helots.

Largely agreed ! The 'Sciritae' are not Spartans at all, and the others are not 'real' Spartans either, being 'Helots' serving as Hoplites, who will receive 'freedom' in return for their service, but there is still a distinction between 'Sciritae' (technically allies) and the Helots forming part of the actual Spartan Army, even though technically they were not "lakedaemonians themselves", which you would have seen had you stood in the opposing ranks.
You would have seen the unit/lochos of 600 'Sciritae' with whatever shield blazons ( probably individual) they carried, then 7 units/ Morai/ Brigades of the Spartan Army proper - the two independent 'lochoi'/battalions of 'Brasideoi' and 'Neodamodeis' forming one brigade, then the 6 'Morai'(12 lochoi)/Regiments/Brigades, all with "lambdas gleaming", and indistinguishable; then the various Allied contingents with their various shield blazons, and finally the "few Spartans" with gleaming lambdas at the very end.... so in fact, no "internal contradiction" by Thucydides at all !! D

When it comes to Agis’ command decisions, the argument is just as intractable. Firstly he is surprised by the Allies’ readiness to take the field. Secondly, though he has the larger army (which Thucydides states twice), he is overly concerned over his left being outflanked whilst his right overlapped “still farther beyond the Athenians”. At this point he moves two “units”/lochoi (the Sciritae and Brasideans) to the left. well, he wanted to, but as we know it did not happen...You would have it that he may have “intended to extend far enough to overlap the mantineans in turn”. On this Thucydides is rather plain; he moved them to “make the line even with the Mantineans” (5.71.3).Quite right ! I did not take that in.... Further, as Thucydides says, he wished the polemarchs to take two “units”/lochoi from “the he right wing; thinking that his right would still be strong enough to spare” the loss of such “units”/lochoi. All this while Thucydides has been describing wings (“horn”) and I find it unlikely that he thought the Spartan line had yet another “horn” or wing in the middle of the line. As I have already explained in previous posts, Thucydides cannot mean two 'units/lochoi "from the right wing" of the Allied army, for he has told us that only "a few Spartans" stood at the very end of the Allied line ( presumably to keep order and prevent excessive 'right drift') and so he must have meant from the right wing of the Spartan Army.... and the practicalities of time and distance favour this view as well.

Agis may not rank as the greatest of Spartan kings and he was under a cloud. Further, he had ten “Spartans of the officer class” who rode shotgun on him. I would doubt these would allow a command for two “units”/lochoi to be removed from the centre of the line to fill a gap created on the left. If the order went out it was to the right wing of the army.

...yes, for an earlier blunder, but the ten 'supervisors' are not referred to in this instance, and Agis' period of being 'on parole' so to speak may have been over...
I don't think it logical either that if the 'ten' were present and did allow Agis' order, that it follows that the order went to the right wing of the Allied army, for Thucydides is quite explicit that only "a few" Spartans were posted there, not a third of the army (if Thuc. is not mistaken, and he most assuredly is! ) or one sixth if you accept the arguments expounded here ( two lochoi from twelve). As we have seen ( ante) given what he says, Thucydides cannot have meant the right wing of the Allied army, but must have meant the Spartan army....