Spartan Mora regiments at Battle of Plataea

[Paullus Scipio]

My dear Paralus, I'm afraid you need to go back and read your Thucydides a little more carefully!

Paralus wrote:

No. Thucydides clearly lists the Sciritae, Brasideans and Neodamodeis as separate units and then goes on to list the "Lacedaemonians themselves" (5.67.1):

No ? I wouldn't be so certain if I were you.....

Thucydides 5.68.3

There were seven regiments in the field without counting the Sciritae, so, the six Lochoi/Morai plus the Brasideoi/Neodamodeiswho numbered six hundred men: in each Regiment which Thucydides calls 'lochoi' there were four Pentecostyes, and in the Pentecosty four Enomoties. The first rank of the Enomoty was composed of four soldiers: as to the depth, although they had not been all drawn up alike, but as each captain chose, they were generally ranged eight deep; the first rank along the whole line, exclusive of the Sciritae,re-iterating that the 'regiment' of Brasideoi/Neodamodeis are included consisted of four hundred and forty-eight men.

..so each of the seven units consist of 64 x 8= 512 men, ergo the 'Brasideoi/Neodamodeis' together only numbered 512 according to Thucydides, who clearly regards them as a single unit ( "On the left wing were the Sciritae,...next to them were the soldiers of Brasidas and the Neodamodeis....Then came the Spartans themselves, regiment after regiment.." he is expounding them from left to right, unit/regiment after unit/regiment ) As you have pointed out, the 'Brasideoi' alone set out numbering some 700, so Thucydides is clearly mistaken. Furthermore, as you have also pointed out, their place in the line was to be taken by two regiments/lochoi, so you are right (they were separate 'lochoi', and Thucydides is wrong! D lol: ( His fundamental error being that he thought 'lochoi' were the largest Spartan unit when in fact above them was the 'Mora' )

A number of things are clear: the Brasideans and the Neodamodeis are separate units – from each other as well as the “Lacedaemonians themselves” and that there were, apparently, “a few Lacedaemonians” on the right wing.

...agreed, though we must bear in mind that Thucydides (wrongly) considers them together equivalent to one Spartan "regiment"...

As the armies were about to meet it mattered little that the “Spartans” who moved to fill the gap came from the right wing or – as you’d suggest – the “right wing” of the centre. Fact was that the Mantineans overlapped the Spartan left by the two “lochos” (or whatever “unit” you wish to use)..not necessarily - Agis might have intended to extend far enough to overlap the mantineans in turn moved to counter that overlap – the Sciritae and Brasideans – who were then replaced by two “lochos” from “the right wing”. Two plus two fills a gap no? And, unless the Brasideans had suffered severely in Thrace, these units are 600 men each (depending upon Brasidean numbers).

...so replacing them with two 'lochoi' makes sense, and we are again agreed....but this is where the problem of Thucydides mistake starts. If the seven Spartan
units, which Thucydides calls 'lochoi' and which number 512 are the whole army, then it numbers a mere 3584, and the Spartans cannot have "looked the larger Army" unless you do a lot of fudging with the other side's figures.... If on the other hand we accept that Thucydides was wrong ( and his earlier statement that it was "impossible" for him to give exact numbers implies he himself realised there was something wrong), and didn't realise that the seven Spartan units were not 512 strong 'lochoi', but in fact 1024 strong 'Morai', then all is resolved, as I set out in my previous post - and I hasten to add that I am not alone in postulating this .

On your reading Agis wished to open a two lochos (insert your “unit” here in Pythonesque tone) gap in his centre right. The man was obviously a goose.Yup! ...as the two Polemarchs realised.... It makes far more sense that he attempted to transfer units from his – now – unopposed right wing.
No, for two reasons - he would want to retain his right wing overlap - especially as he had the larger army; and the armies were already in their final advance and thus only a few hundred yards apart. If they came from the 'right wing' of the Lakedaemonians they had some 9 'lochoi' to pass including the Neodamodeis on a frontage of ( by my reckoning on 'open' and 'close' order) of around 1,000 yards; if from the extreme right wing then almost double that, or if we take 8 deep as being in close order (which they woudn't have been at that point in time anyway - advancing prior to the charge - then half those distances i.e. 500 yards if from the Lakedaemonian right, almost double that if from the extreme right wing. In either event it was a big ask - and if from the extreme right wing, utterly impossible.
Furthermore, since Thucydides tells us"Then came the Spartans themselves, regiment after regiment. Next were the Arcadians...[and other allies].On the right wing were the Tegeans, with a few Spartans at the very end." So not even one Spartan 'lochoi' on the extreme right wing, let alone two, a third of Thucydides Spartan army ! Thucydides can only mean from the right of the Lakedaemonian 'lochoi'

Thucydides has already admitted the difficulty in assessing Spartan numbers. You have pointed out the possible confusion of unit sizes. It is highly likely that Thucydides had no idea of the Spartan numbers on the right – a position they regularly occupied in their arrays.
He still wouldn't have called a third of the Lakedaemonians, even on his diminished numbers, "a few Spartans"...your argument does not hold up at all...

It is totally illogical, though, that Agis would remove two lochoi from his centre to shore up his extending left...no it isn't, if only for the 'distance' reason I have given... He was a Spartan king after all....and one whose order was so blatantly bad that two senior Polemarchs/Brigadiers independently( because each was with his unit ) disobeyed - knowing in full the likely consequences

So, in the end, how many Spartan units (lochoi or mora) were at Mantinea? A rhetorical question no doubt ....but the most likely answer is set out in my previous post !!! :wink: :wink: