Spartan Mora regiments at Battle of Plataea

[Paralus]

You may paint Leuktra as you wish.
emotive language !

I prefer “colourful” – particularly given the verb.

Such sarcasm is misplaced and unwarranted....I could respond in kind but won't - let us keep a debate civilised and not descend to parliamentary levels !! :wink: :wink:

I thought it rather good myself and far from “parliamentary”. No cat calls or name calling in that post. Perhaps I could change my nom de plume to Keating. In which case I might observe that Kleombrotus’ drinking indicates that he was “a shiver looking for a spine to run up!” (Always did like that: parliament is quite sleep inducing since the vitriol-master departed).

I’m surprised you failed to mention the fact that the Spartan king got his senior officers pie-eyed before lunch!
Aside from the fact that this is an untrue exaggeration of one of Xenophon's remarks, what is the relevance to the current point in hand, namely whether Leuktra was a decisive military victory??

I altered the Aussie parlance.

Personally I do not believe this is exaggerated. Xenophon mentions it as part of the exculpatory excursus that passes for his description of the battle. This is – as you’ve noted – not unexpected given his clear sympathies just as Ephorus’ (given he is the source of Diodorus’ narrative) sympathies colour his . That he does so – in the context of explaining away the defeat – strongly suggests that he thought their state contributed to the “out of character” performance on the field. There is no need for Xenophon to retail the story if Kleombrous and his officers had only the regulation libation over a sacrifice or such.

As a personal observation I believe this was more usual than not – people haven’t changed much over the years (leaving aside the Royal Navy’s rescinding of the daily rum ration!). “Liquoring up” some prior to battle was likely somewhat more prevalent than the sources indicate – even in Spartan armies.

[…] at the time, even Epaminondas recognised that even if his victory had saved Boeotia and defeated the Spartan invasion, it had been a close run thing , the War was far from over, and the issue was still in doubt.

We have strayed far from the topic but this is far more interesting! Leuktra was the end play in a concerted game plan by the Spartans to neuter Thebes. That should, perhaps, read Agesilaos rather than Spartans though, clearly, he had support.

It is often put about that Agesilaos and his hatred of the Thebans destroyed Sparta. It pays to look at it the other way around. The relationship between Thebes and Sparta had been somewhat “iffy” since the end of the Peloponnesian War. Clearly Sparta did not view a strong Thebes rising to dominance in central Greece with any glee. Thebes did, though, over the first quarter of the fourth century do just that. Agesilaos and his fellow travellers could read the inscriptions on the stone and took measures to keep Thebes where she should be. The culmination of their “meddling” (for want of a better word) was bringing Thebes to the battlefield at Leuktra in utter isolation.

Far from Agesilaos bringing Sparta down, the Spartan army and its officers failed the pugnacious king and their city. Had the Agesilaos of Coronea led that army Thebes may well have gone down to defeat. Just what Agesilaos might have done to the city (on exposed form) probably doesn’t bear thinking about.

Combine that with Xenophon's comments and you get a feel for how contemporaries viewed matters. So uncertain were matters that an appeal from Thebes to Athens to join in against Sparta fell on deaf ears....Athens stayed out because the outcome was uncertain....obviously they didn't feel Thebes had won a "Decisive Victory", even if they were as impressed as everyone else at the shock defeat of the cream ( the 'Hippeis/Homio') of Sparta's army.[/color][/i]

It’s not as clear cut as that. I don’t know that the word “hate” is appropriate but I doubt that Athens hated Sparta. That she disliked the Thebans is a given. Their argy-bargy over territorial disputes was reminiscent of kids arguing over toys. It was only Agesilaos’ chess playing with Thebes that threw Athens and Thebes together in on again / off again marriages of convenience. Athens likely viewed a strong and dominant Thebes with less pleasure than the Spartans. In fact, the most recent edition of the King’s Peace (prior to Leuktra) saw Sparta and Athens as hegemon by land and sea respectively.

Athens, shocked at the Spartan loss, was even more shocked by the realisation of what now lived on her doorstep. She took an immediate interest in arranging a negotiating table for the next edition of that peace so as to shore up her position. Subsequent events would see her allied to Sparta out of fear and distrust of her neighbour. She was right to do so: Epaminondas swiftly realised that Greek empires necessitate a fleet. He wasn’t about to use Athens’. Nor would he abide by her version of a peace: Pelopidas would travel to Susa and secure the golden goose: Thebes as prostatai of the King’s Peace.

Epaminondas – as he would prove – well knew the weakness of his adversary.
On the contrary, he showed an abundance of caution, was well aware that the Spartan Tiger still had plenty of bite ( enough to kill him at second Mantinea!), and perhaps his true genius was to realise that the best way to destroy Sparta's power was OFF the battlefield....

Something he could only achieve after militarily defeating the Lacedaemonians in the field.

[…] so wash it down with a fine glass of 'vin rouge', and we can joust again on another topic !! D lol: :wink:

I shall take that advice and drink it.