10-31-2009, 02:02 AM
Paul B. wrote:
I'll enlarge a little..
The Xenophon example refers to the period after Leuktra, when most of the Peloponnesian allies deserted, and is an exception, being after Sparta's heyday.Cromnus was a town near Megalopolis. That the garrison should contain both Spartans and Perioikoi at this late stage is no surpise, and it may even be that they may have served in the 'Morai' at such a late stage, though I tend to think not.....
To forestall your next point :- Xenophon describes Archidamus marching out "with the citizens" and garrisoning Cromnus with "3 of the twelve lochoi" which clearly implies that the 12 lochoi were all citizens, and hence could not include perioikoi, since these were not citizens, of which fact Xenophon was only too well aware. Yet in your quotation, the prisoners evidently included perioikoi. The likely explanation is that Xenophon has forgotten to mention them, or not mentioned perhaps that the initial garrison might have been relieved/rotated and replaced by a differently composed force. ( c.f. the various garrisons of Spacteria). The former explanation is the more likely since elsewhere Xenophon forgets to mention perioikoi e.g. Agesilaus army in Boeotia in 378 and 377 must have included perioikoi,( either units or volunteers) for he mentions casualties (XH V.4.39), but later at the end of the campaign Agesilaus "dismissed the allies and led the citizen army home".....again no mention of Perioikoi ( who were not citizens).
Neither Herodotus, Thucydides or Xenophon mention perioikoi serving against fellow peloponnesians until the revolt of the Peloponnesian allies after Leuktra, when Xenophon mentions them in connection with Agesilaos' campaigns against the Arcadians ( who were of course Peloponnesians.)
Significantly, at the end of this campaign against the Arcadians, Xenophon varies his formulaic "dismissal" phrase and this time he dismisses "the Spartans to their homes and the Perioikoi to their various cities" (XH VI.5.21), whereas before the defection of the Peloponnesian allies, there is no mention of perioikoi in connection with campaigns against peloponnesian enemies. Further support for this idea, although there can be no certainty, is that in a campaign against the Argives in 391, Agesilaos " disbanded the army of his allies and led the citizen army back to Sparta" (XH IV.4.19 ).Another example is after a campaign against Phleious in 379, he "allows the Allies to disperse and led his own troops back to Sparta" (XH V.3.25)........ presumably only Spartan troops would return to Sparta. In both cases against Peloponnesian enemies, no perioikoi are referred to.
The other exception is Sphacteria - but there they are defending the Peloponnese against Athenian invasion.
Toynbee's essay, in which he puts forward the idea that one lochos of the Morai was Spartan and the other perioikoi, appears in his 1969 book, "Some problems of Greek History", but that idea is not now generally accepted, for as we have seen above Xenophon describes all twelve lochoi as "the citizens" and again, it is certain that perioikoi were not citizens...
......and like I said, I don't want to get into a new debate about whether perioikoi served in the 'Morai' - suffice to say that I believe the weight of evidence tips against this possibility. :evil: :wink:
Quote:Please digress, for this comes as a suprise to me (and evidently to Herodotus and Xenophon). Source me, baby!
I'll enlarge a little..
Quote:"perioikoi did not serve in the peloponnese against fellow Peloponnesians as a rule, nor in the Spartan Army itself, save for certain Aristocratic 'volunteers' who were permitted to accompany the King on campaign - but I don't want to digress into another debate about perioikoi !"......the Herodotus quote is not relevant to the statement, since it refers to the assembly of Pausanias' army ( the 5,000 Spartans, attended by Helots, had already marched) for the Plataea campaign, following the building of the wall across the ismuth of Corinth to defend against Xerxes. It does demonstrate however that at the time of the Persian Wars, the Periokoi served separately....
The Xenophon example refers to the period after Leuktra, when most of the Peloponnesian allies deserted, and is an exception, being after Sparta's heyday.Cromnus was a town near Megalopolis. That the garrison should contain both Spartans and Perioikoi at this late stage is no surpise, and it may even be that they may have served in the 'Morai' at such a late stage, though I tend to think not.....
To forestall your next point :- Xenophon describes Archidamus marching out "with the citizens" and garrisoning Cromnus with "3 of the twelve lochoi" which clearly implies that the 12 lochoi were all citizens, and hence could not include perioikoi, since these were not citizens, of which fact Xenophon was only too well aware. Yet in your quotation, the prisoners evidently included perioikoi. The likely explanation is that Xenophon has forgotten to mention them, or not mentioned perhaps that the initial garrison might have been relieved/rotated and replaced by a differently composed force. ( c.f. the various garrisons of Spacteria). The former explanation is the more likely since elsewhere Xenophon forgets to mention perioikoi e.g. Agesilaus army in Boeotia in 378 and 377 must have included perioikoi,( either units or volunteers) for he mentions casualties (XH V.4.39), but later at the end of the campaign Agesilaus "dismissed the allies and led the citizen army home".....again no mention of Perioikoi ( who were not citizens).
Neither Herodotus, Thucydides or Xenophon mention perioikoi serving against fellow peloponnesians until the revolt of the Peloponnesian allies after Leuktra, when Xenophon mentions them in connection with Agesilaos' campaigns against the Arcadians ( who were of course Peloponnesians.)
Significantly, at the end of this campaign against the Arcadians, Xenophon varies his formulaic "dismissal" phrase and this time he dismisses "the Spartans to their homes and the Perioikoi to their various cities" (XH VI.5.21), whereas before the defection of the Peloponnesian allies, there is no mention of perioikoi in connection with campaigns against peloponnesian enemies. Further support for this idea, although there can be no certainty, is that in a campaign against the Argives in 391, Agesilaos " disbanded the army of his allies and led the citizen army back to Sparta" (XH IV.4.19 ).Another example is after a campaign against Phleious in 379, he "allows the Allies to disperse and led his own troops back to Sparta" (XH V.3.25)........ presumably only Spartan troops would return to Sparta. In both cases against Peloponnesian enemies, no perioikoi are referred to.
The other exception is Sphacteria - but there they are defending the Peloponnese against Athenian invasion.
Toynbee's essay, in which he puts forward the idea that one lochos of the Morai was Spartan and the other perioikoi, appears in his 1969 book, "Some problems of Greek History", but that idea is not now generally accepted, for as we have seen above Xenophon describes all twelve lochoi as "the citizens" and again, it is certain that perioikoi were not citizens...
Quote:Thukydides simply calling the joint "mora" by the appellation Lakedaemonian....incorrect. Thucydides only refers to lochoi at Mantinea.
......and like I said, I don't want to get into a new debate about whether perioikoi served in the 'Morai' - suffice to say that I believe the weight of evidence tips against this possibility. :evil: :wink:
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
