11-04-2009, 02:15 AM
Paul B. wrote:
...an interesting summary, but it includes a couple of assumptions that don't really hold up under close scrutiny, namely the "re-organisations". Also there is a distortion of what the sources actually say with reference to Xenophon's 'Constitution'. The table comes from Figueira's "Population patterns in Sparta" - a fine study, though I don't agree with all his conclusions....as here. The table really needs to be read in conjunction with the main article, for there, Figueira is more accurate....
1. the table shows the Army "halved", but there's no explanation for this, and note, although there are 'half as many' 'enomotia', there are twice as many 'lochoi'
2. In a footnote, Figueira acknowledges that the difference could be textual error - as I referred to earlier in the thread...
3.Note that here the 'orbat' is supposedly the 'traditional' one according to Xenophon - meaning there has been NO change - this makes it all the more likely that a textual error/corruption has occurred since it is plain in Xenophon elsewhere that the Mora consisted of two 'lochoi'.....
4. Figueira's reason for the change is that the 'new' orbat needs fewer Homioi officers ( largely due to half as many enomotarchs) from a declining Homioi population, but then he has to 'explain away' two surplus 'lochagoi!' ( because after Leuktra there are the same 12 'lochoi' as before, instead of the 24 here - ANOTHER change?)....this just does not seem likely and is rather forced....
5. On the "Occam's razor" principle, the simplest explanation is surely the most likely...... as I have noted, a phalanx is a phalanx is a phalanx - tactically, it fights largely as a single unit, and its sub-divisions are not crucial, therefore no need to change them - and no Greek state does to our knowledge. If we accept that Thucydides is correct for his detailed explanation of the 'lochos' organisation, and that there is a textual error in the 'Constitution' we need go no further.....the Spartan Army consisted of 6 Mora, 12 Lochoi,8 pentekostyes,32 enomotia with 40 men each if all age-classes were called up, for a total of 7680 Hoplites plus 300 Hippeis, which ties in beautifully with Herodotus' "8,000", the selection of the 300 for Thermopylae and the force at Plataea, the known manpower of other city-states....in short, everything ! As Lazenby points out, this organisation also fits the Spartan Army at the time of the "Battle of the Champions" against Argos in the sixth century ,if forces of 300 are obtained by One 'enomotia' being drawn by lot from each of the 12 'lochoi'.
No need for "re-organisations", or un-necessary complexities at all. Again I agree with Lazenby, when he points out that the Spartans were a "conservative" people and unlikely to continually "tinker" with something as fundamental to their State as The Army and its proud Traditional 'Morai'. Again one has only to point to modern resistance to Military re-organisation in another Traditional Army such as Britain's....the proposed disbandment of the Ghurkas, amalgamation of units etc being a case in point, to realise why the last thing to change would be the structure of the Phalanx....
The above organisation, then, is the most likely for the 'Spartan' Army at Plataea 5,000 strong, with the 'perioikoi' brigaded separately as "allies" and together they form the Lakedaemonian Army, 10,000 strong at Plataea. PHEW!
D lol:
Quote:Here's a figura from Figueira:
...an interesting summary, but it includes a couple of assumptions that don't really hold up under close scrutiny, namely the "re-organisations". Also there is a distortion of what the sources actually say with reference to Xenophon's 'Constitution'. The table comes from Figueira's "Population patterns in Sparta" - a fine study, though I don't agree with all his conclusions....as here. The table really needs to be read in conjunction with the main article, for there, Figueira is more accurate....
Quote:"The mora was commanded by a polemarch whoThere are a few things to note here:
directed 4 lokhagoi, 8 pentakontieres, and 16 enomotarkhioi and in contrast
to Thucydides, Xenophon knows of the mora and its polemarch, but he
has doubled the number of lokhagoi and halved the number of enomotarchiai
As he describes this order of command as a Lycurgan (i.e.,
traditional) one, it was presumably in place during the Corinthian War,
in the period of Xenophon's active career as an officer.
Xenophon, however, does not give us an order of battle, but a chain of command..."
1. the table shows the Army "halved", but there's no explanation for this, and note, although there are 'half as many' 'enomotia', there are twice as many 'lochoi'
2. In a footnote, Figueira acknowledges that the difference could be textual error - as I referred to earlier in the thread...
3.Note that here the 'orbat' is supposedly the 'traditional' one according to Xenophon - meaning there has been NO change - this makes it all the more likely that a textual error/corruption has occurred since it is plain in Xenophon elsewhere that the Mora consisted of two 'lochoi'.....
4. Figueira's reason for the change is that the 'new' orbat needs fewer Homioi officers ( largely due to half as many enomotarchs) from a declining Homioi population, but then he has to 'explain away' two surplus 'lochagoi!' ( because after Leuktra there are the same 12 'lochoi' as before, instead of the 24 here - ANOTHER change?)....this just does not seem likely and is rather forced....
5. On the "Occam's razor" principle, the simplest explanation is surely the most likely...... as I have noted, a phalanx is a phalanx is a phalanx - tactically, it fights largely as a single unit, and its sub-divisions are not crucial, therefore no need to change them - and no Greek state does to our knowledge. If we accept that Thucydides is correct for his detailed explanation of the 'lochos' organisation, and that there is a textual error in the 'Constitution' we need go no further.....the Spartan Army consisted of 6 Mora, 12 Lochoi,8 pentekostyes,32 enomotia with 40 men each if all age-classes were called up, for a total of 7680 Hoplites plus 300 Hippeis, which ties in beautifully with Herodotus' "8,000", the selection of the 300 for Thermopylae and the force at Plataea, the known manpower of other city-states....in short, everything ! As Lazenby points out, this organisation also fits the Spartan Army at the time of the "Battle of the Champions" against Argos in the sixth century ,if forces of 300 are obtained by One 'enomotia' being drawn by lot from each of the 12 'lochoi'.
No need for "re-organisations", or un-necessary complexities at all. Again I agree with Lazenby, when he points out that the Spartans were a "conservative" people and unlikely to continually "tinker" with something as fundamental to their State as The Army and its proud Traditional 'Morai'. Again one has only to point to modern resistance to Military re-organisation in another Traditional Army such as Britain's....the proposed disbandment of the Ghurkas, amalgamation of units etc being a case in point, to realise why the last thing to change would be the structure of the Phalanx....
The above organisation, then, is the most likely for the 'Spartan' Army at Plataea 5,000 strong, with the 'perioikoi' brigaded separately as "allies" and together they form the Lakedaemonian Army, 10,000 strong at Plataea. PHEW!
D lol:
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
