The leather strap or belt "keeper" question

[jkaler48]

The "keeper" on a belt or strap in the leather piece attached after the buckle to hold the loose end of the strap down. My question is were these used on Roman equipment or is it a later invention? I am thinking of making some "multipurpose" straps with buckles for uses like: cloaks straps, pugio and sword straps, hold the belt on the Seg, and emergency seg
repairs etc.

[Magnus]

There's no direct evidence for it. But knock yourself out.

[M. Demetrius]

I've seen a bunch of people using the "Knight's Knot" half hitch just past the buckle, and seems like a few sculptural bits support this, but what I don't get is why a people would make belts "too long for the waist wearing them" in the first place. What's to gain by that extra leather tail? Phallic image or something?

[Matthew Amt]

No evidence for such a "keeper" at all, so I would actively avoid it! Belt ends and strap ends are always shown just dangling. In the case of belts, the ends could even be decorated with a dangly terminal like the apron straps, and hang alongside them.

Matthew

[A_Volpe]

Demetrius

I agree with Matt Amt - Looking at the images of tombstones, like for Signifers and Aquilifers, they both seem to sport some really long 'tongues' or end straps, which are left to dangle with the rest of their "danglium" straps.

the whole dangly thing just seems to be the big fad for soldiers in the 1st century.

As I always mention in my programs/presentations, the straps appear to be totally useless except to show off and "look cool". Fashion trends come and go and sometimes we don't even understand them when it's the current thing.

I still fail to understand the need for deafeningly loud mega stereo systems that cost the same as, if not more, than the car they are installed in, nevermind the need to hear nothing but distorted bass rumbling 10 miles away, as the car shakes itself apart. I don't understand the purpose of covering oneself in designer name-brand clothing that costs the same as 50 pairs of one generic brand or half a semester's tuition at a college. And I *really* fail to understand the reason of wearing pants 3x your natural waist size around your knees so everyone sees your boxer shorts and your bits hanging out - but to them it's the damn coolest, most Important Thing To Do like everyone else.

[M. Demetrius]

Hey wait, don't misunderstand: I agree that they did it, too. Just don't quite see why, and the practice continued way up into the Medieval times, evidently. Gotta be phallic. Why else?

[A_Volpe]

I liken it to the kitty syndrome - Shiny Pretty Dangly-Swingy-Thingy

draws attention and is fairly obnoxious. Like with my mention of stupid mega stereo systems, or even overly-loud Harley Davidson exhausts, they are loud and obnoxious for a reason "Look at MMEEEEE!" I think Romans were in the same mindset "Yes, I am baddass and I can kick your butt/kill you and still be crazy enough to wear this obnoxious dangly stuff, what are YOU gonna DO about it?...Nothin'? Yeah, That's what I thought"

The straps range from what, 4 to 12, and have up to a dozen or so studs each? that is a lot of metal, maybe it was something like "Wow, Caius has twice as many straps as I do, he must be sneaking away money to pay for that somehow...I gotta one-up him!"

wearing one does tend to help prevent the tunic from doing the Marylin Monroe whoopsie-daisy thing in a good breeze, as well as sitting down. Maybe the Romans didn't care so much for Mooning people but appear to be pretty bashful with the front-end stuff. (hence, strategically place fig leaves on sculpture)

besides, they had plenty of phallic symbols they used already, a limp dangly strap doesn't look nearly the same as a winged-phallus, so I don't think it was meant to be phallic, just a lot of dangly things ~ what about fringe? What is the purpose of it?

[Tarbicus]

The dangling belt strap end seems to have been the origins of the apron, if you put the representational evidence in chronoligical order.

[M. Demetrius]

Good point, Tarbicus.

what about fringe? What is the purpose of it?

Fringe on woven material is a fairly simple, and effective way to deal with the warp trimmed off the loom. It can be decorative, or just functional, but it stops the first (or last) row of weft from coming unraveled. Lots of blankets have that feature. I've seen some indications of it in sculptures of Romans wearing a sagum, so it's documentable. It is decorative, but does have function.

On leather, like Frontiersmen/Amerindians in America wore on buckskin clothing, fringe helps dry the leather by drawing water from the main body (capillarity) and encouraging evaporation, besides being decorative. It's a good place to thread beads for bling, too, I reckon. So it is both functional and decorative, and for a while in the early 70s it was a fad, but served no real function then.

[Matthew Amt]

Fig leaves on sculpture are modern additions, Andy, 18th or 19th century. Victorians again!

Matthew

[Crispvs]

I notice that you mention "pugio straps". I am not entirely sure what you mean by this but if, per chance, you mean the two short straps many re-enactors use to suspend their daggers from, I would advise against following this practice. There is absolutely no evidence for these straps and they are a modern invention. I know of no evidence for them before 1985, when Morrel published his article on the Velson burial.

The representational evidence consistently shows the upper suspension rings of dagger sheaths in line with the belt itself, butting up against the frog buttons in such a way as to suggest that they are tightly laced to the frog buttons with thonging. Frog plates therefore need to be close enough together on the belt that the buttons touch the upper suspension rings on either side. The lower suspension rings should not be used at all.

Crispvs

[jkaler48]

I notice that you mention "pugio straps". I am not entirely sure what you mean by this but if, per chance, you mean the two short straps many re-enactors use to suspend their daggers from, I would advise against following this practice. There is absolutely no evidence for these straps and they are a modern invention. I know of no evidence for them before 1985, when Morrel published his article on the Velson burial.

The representational evidence consistently shows the upper suspension rings of dagger sheaths in line with the belt itself, butting up against the frog buttons in such a way as to suggest that they are tightly laced to the frog buttons with thonging. Frog plates therefore need to be close enough together on the belt that the buttons touch the upper suspension rings on either side. The lower suspension rings should not be used at all.

Crispvs

I was thinking for belts without the frog buttons of the method of running the straps (with buckles) thru the rings and round the belt. Perhaps no evidence for but an alternative
to thongs.