The Centurion and his horse questions.

[jkaler48]

Often the Centurion gets to ride a horse on the march. Where is the Centurion's scutum? Who leads his horse off when his dismounts to lead the Century? Where to?

Does the Centurion have a servant that marches behind him carrying his scutum and taking care of the horse as needed?

Perhaps his scutum is carried in the Artillery cart when it accompanies the Century and that where his horse get tied up to or near. (Perhaps that is where water and feed for his horse and the cart's mules goes also.

Who does the horse belong to? The Legion or the Centurion himself? Does he have to pay for feed and care if it's his horse?

[Magnus]

Errrmmm...John, what was the last Roman themed book you read, or internet site? Please understand I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but for someone who's been a reenactor for a while, those are pretty basic questions.

Oh, and this belongs in the History section.

[jkaler48]

Sorry but I have seen anyone with a mounted Centurion impression at a reenactment or an Artillery cart on the march due to lack of horses and mules and pack mules. I lost my copy of the Century Grade Officers Guide too. :? ?:

[Magnus]

First, do we know centurions rode at all? What gave you that impression?

If they did, then yes, they have a servant that took care of most of their needs. That would include any equine matters.

If they did have a mount, it would likely be kept at camp, or with the rest of the baggage train.

But those are big IF's...do you have a reference that piqued your interest? In my meager readings I haven't encountered any mention of the centurions doing anything but marching alongside the regulars. It's easier to whip them with their vitis that way.

[jkaler48]

I remember reading somewhere that recalled veterans (Evocati) had the privilege of riding. I just don't remember what reference it was about Centurions riding on the march. Maybe I am confusing it with later period Infantry company commanders riding. I found this quote from MC Bishop (IN 2003)

"I have just dug up a little booklet by Graham Webster in which he states that centurions were mounted on the march. He's actually talking about the wearing of greaves i.e. the fact that regular soldiers sacrificed such protection as they hampered mobility on the march, whilst centurions who rode wore them. I do realize this publication is very dated and current thinking on the subject may well be different now but I can't find any other reference to it at all"

So I will keep looking!

[Matt Lukes]

Sounds like a real stretch theory to me- the use of greaves suggest Centuriones rode? One really has to beware of books making statements that sound like fact but are actually simply one of countless theories- sadly few reference anything so you can't easily tell between properly supported ideas and purely theoretical ones. Plus you have to be careful about universal statements and questions- Centuriones didn't necessarily ride- surely some at least did if they had a horse, but that's as far as one could say without proper evidence.

I read the other day in Dionysius of Halicarnassus (XI. 25, 2 - 26,4) about a veteran named Siccius, who must have been a senior Centurio since he's described as "...engaged in the war against the Aequians at the head of a cohort of eight hundred men...", who had, presumably, a number of servants: "But a servant of Siccius, who was his shield bearer and a brave warrior...". Whether or not it truly means this one guy was responsible for Siccius' shield isn't clear, but it seems reasonable that Siccius wouldn't want to drag the thing around himself but would have someone who'd just give it to him right before a battle, so there's the answer to that question; also if there were such a position, surely then there'd be special grooms for caring for a horse. However, there's also a passage where the generals of the army are offering Siccius a unit to go out for a particular mission (finding a better place for the army to camp) that reads: "...for yourself there shall be a horse, on account of your age, [Siccius was a retired veteran who returned for this particular war- M.] and armour suitable for such an expidition.", suggesting that the horse was not a normal thing even for the leader of a Cohort. If Siccius had a horse for normal distance movements, there'd be no mention of it being provided for this probably short-disance trip.

[jkaler48]

So I guess the conclusion would be that a Centurion would not normally be mounted on the march but might be sometimes due to age, injury or illness. Likewise the centurion
might have a servant to carry his shield on the march or perhaps store it in the Artillery cart if that was with the Century on the march. I think a reenactment guide for Centurions
would be a good project if someone had the time and knowledge to write one. Or maybe even a broader Legion Officers guide!

[jvrjenivs]

I think a reenactment guide for Centurions would be a good project if someone had the time and knowledge to write one. Or maybe even a broader Legion Officers guide!

Wouldn't it be good if someone does some research himself, instead of 'using a manual', especially when that person is portraying a higher officer and therefore more important to have knowledge of what he represents.... I mean, every impression, item or show should start in the library, not just on the field during an event.

(I'm not saying a guide is no good. Matt Amts Legionairy handbook was the best start I could have wished when starting with the hobby, but that's for the general start.)

But to stay on topic. I think your first conclusion is good. (about centurio using no horse), but your quote about the scutum on the cart I wouldn't support. All references I (think to) know of shields on carts are from later period round shields. I don't remeber anything about this in imperial period. Also, why wouldn't a centurio (who is marching in front of his centurie) don't wanna have his scutum at hand. I would say he would have it nearby, just as every other soldier has it.

[Magnus]

Spot on Jurjen. It's better that the individual spend some of their $$ on books and obtain the knowledge themselves.

[jkaler48]

Would a section on RAT with links to what online source material is available on line and a list of books with short descriptions of content be useful? Many people new to the hobby might find that useful I think. Maybe it could be called Recommended Research References.

[jvrjenivs]

Would a section on RAT with (...) a list of books with short descriptions of content be useful? Many people new to the hobby might find that useful I think.

Certainly it would, so therefore that topic was started years ago:
The indispendable booklist (it's a sticky in References en Reviews subforum)

[Iosephus]

All references I (think to) know of shields on carts are from later period round shields. I don't remeber anything about this in imperial period.

personally I don't support the "riding centurion" idea myself, but there is imperial period reference for rectangular scutums on carts during march (though they may be replacment shields only):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _XXXVI.jpg

and there is the tombstone of Titus Calidius Severus from Carnuntum which shows a horse together with somebody (Titus or his servant?):

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

of course the latter doesn't prove anything, it can be only the showing of the deceased's personal wealth and has nothing to do with the army.

[jkaler48]

All references I (think to) know of shields on carts are from later period round shields. I don't remeber anything about this in imperial period.

personally I don't support the "riding centurion" idea myself, but there is imperial period reference for rectangular scutums on carts during march (though they may be replacment shields only):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _XXXVI.jpg

and there is the tombstone of Titus Calidius Severus from Carnuntum which shows a horse together with somebody (Titus or his servant?):

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

of course the latter doesn't prove anything, it can be only the showing of the deceased's personal wealth and has nothing to do with the army.

Well if he is in uniform holding his horse it is a different matter than if he is wearing his off duty or retired civilian outfit and is depicted riding for pleasure. Also it could be
a servant holding the horse showing he was wealthy enough to have both a horse and servant to care for it. What does everyone think of the figures outfit?
Also is it known if their was any difference in civilian vs military saddle and tack? That would be a clue also. It looks like a short tunic which would argue for military dress or
a servant but then again civilian riding attire may have called for a short tunic just like shorts are worn for sports now. The saddle doesn't appear to have horns like a military saddle.

[jvrjenivs]

As far as I know there is little difference in military saddles and horsegear and civilian. We know of very decorated horsegear found in civilian settlement. Probably from retired men, but then out of military use. But remember that a horse is expensive and you need land for it to feed it and money to have it. On the stone that was earlier menthioned, we also read the letter EQ(ues), so it is certainly possible he owned a horse.

I don't think that horse is depicted because he liked riding for pleasure. It's more a sign of wealthy status, I think. But this is not my field of expertise, and I'm sure others can comment on the way of seeing this stone better as I can.

[popularis]

On the stone that was earlier menthioned, we also read the letter EQ(ues), so it is certainly possible he owned a horse.

I don't think that horse is depicted because he liked riding for pleasure. It's more a sign of wealthy status, I think. But this is not my field of expertise, and I'm sure others can comment on the way of seeing this stone better as I can.

For this inscription, I think that it signifies that he served as a cavalryman. At least in the early part of his career. The inscription is from Carnuntum (Pannonia Superior) and is, I think, 2nd century?:

CIL 03, 11213 (p 2328,32) = D 02596 = RHP 00221 = Schober 00054 = LegioXVApo 00085 = MaCarnuntum 00140 = AEA 1999/00, +00013 = AEA 1999/00, +00043 = AEA 2001/02, +00001 = AEA 2003, +00002 = AEA 2006, +00016

T(itus) Calidius / P(ubli) (!) Cam(ilia) Sever(us?) / eq(ues) item optio / decur(io) coh(ortis) I Alpin(orum) / item |(centurio) leg(ionis) XV Apoll(inaris) / annor(um) LVIII stip(endiorum) XXXIIII / h(ic) s(itus) e(st) / Q(uintus) Calidius fratri / posuit

Rough translation would be:

Titus Calidius Severus, [the son] of Publius of the voting tibe Camilia, a cavalryman, and then an optio [and then] a decurion in the first cohort of Alpini [equitata], and then a centurion in the 15th Legion Apollinaris. He lived for 58 years, and was in the army for 34. He lies here. Quintus Calidius, his brother, put up this inscription.

I'm not really qualified to deal with the iconography, but I'd be tempted to say that the bottom panel signifies his service as a cavalryman, while the top two panels (especially the right hand panel, with greaves and what I think is a centurion's helmet), signify the latter part of his career.

In other words, I don't think this monument is evidence for or against mounted centurions.

On the general point, I seem to remember Caesar (B.G. 7.65) taking horses from his military tribunes, the other Romans of equestrian rank, and his euocati (recalled or retained time-served veterans) to give to his German mercenaries, whose own horses weren't good enough. The fact that he doesn't mention centurions here might be significant (if only for the late Republic).

blue skies

Tom