Lorica segmentata leathering

[mcbishop]

Has anybody here ever used anything other than regular vegetable- or chrome-tanned leather for the internal leathering of a lorica seg? The alternatives appear to be alum-tawed, buckskin, and oil-tanned (chamois) leather (I am assuming rawhide is a non-starter if you don't want your lorica seg to be rigid!). An organic method seems the most likely (so I'm guessing that rules out alum tawing, but that tends to leave me with the image of a bouncy chamois-leathered lorica...), given that leathers never survive in the archaeological record except as mineral-preserved fossils, so if anybody has tried these and can offer comments, I would be interested.

Mike Bishop

[M. Demetrius]

I have not used it for leathering segmentata, but I agree that deerskin, brain-tanned or "modern" tanned would be much too stretchy to support the weight of the metal. You'd soon have gaps between the lames...probably not desirable for armor.

A few years back, two guys teamed up on leathering a seg, one used shoulder cow leather and the other belly for the straps. Both were veg tanned. The result was that after a couple of years, the one side of the armor is almost half a plate longer when worn than the other. And that was with 8oz cowhide. The rivet spacing initially was the same.

[mcbishop]

A few years back, two guys teamed up on leathering a seg, one used shoulder cow leather and the other belly for the straps. Both were veg tanned. The result was that after a couple of years, the one side of the armor is almost half a plate longer when worn than the other. And that was with 8oz cowhide. The rivet spacing initially was the same.

Now that was interesting and just shows the value of experimental reconstruction: unsung heroes in segmentata research! However, the comparative lack of responses suggests you're all using tanned leather and hoping nobody will notice ;-) ) Expect some new observations (and comments) in B&T2*.

Mike Bishop

*Lorica Segmentata ed.2

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Hello,

I have to releathering (?) one of the segmentatas of my group. So, i offer to do with the kind of leather do you want to test, and share with you the results (in a few years, not?).

[M. Demetrius]

Well, if you're using vegetable tanned (tooling leather) cowhide, I'd strongly suggest using back or shoulder, not belly, if you're interested in keeping the dimension reasonably constant. One fellow bought leather belts from a used clothing store, and they did pretty well. Leathered the whole thing for about two dollars.

[mcbishop]

I have to releathering (?) one of the segmentatas of my group. So, i offer to do with the kind of leather do you want to test, and share with you the results (in a few years, not?).

Interesting offer, but I suspect my principal candidate, oil-tanned leather, is going to be difficult to acquire to the right thickness. You can buy so-called chamois leather but most of that is, I believe, sheep, and rather thin, designed to clean cars (or even cover books) so rather thin. Whilst you could manufacture a way of doubling or tripling it up, that won't accurately mimic the single thickness straps evident in the Corbridge Hoard.

However, if you can find some oil-tanned cow hide (shoulder or back, it seems!), know a tannery owner, or fancy having a go at it yourself (that would be extreme!), you might be in with a chance.

Of course, having tried it out and found out that it works, you'd have to bury the cuirass, together with some vegetable tanned leather as a control, in a waterlogged environment for a couple of thousand years... just to be sure ;-) )

Mike Bishop

[Caius Fabius]

Tell me about oil tanned leather? Olive oil? I recently slaughtered a couple of bulls and have two complete hides, in raw form. What type of oils did the Romans use to tan hides? How long does it take?

[D B Campbell]

I recently slaughtered a couple of bulls and have two complete hides, in raw form.

Do we have a medal for "above and beyond the call of experimental archaeology" on RAT?! hock:

(I hope the bulls were yours, Charles!)

[jvrjenivs]

I recently slaughtered a couple of bulls and have two complete hides, in raw form.

Do we have a medal for "above and beyond the call of experimental archaeology" on RAT?! hock:

(I hope the bulls were yours, Charles!)

It probably deserves a hasta pura award when we can show the tanning process in full pictures

[jvrjenivs]

But anyway, this sounds like an interesting experiment. So if we can find a source for this (I don't gonna tan the leather myself), I would also like to do my next segmentata with oil tanned leather. I'm planning on making a new one somewhere next year, anyway.

[mcbishop]

Tell me about oil tanned leather? Olive oil? I recently slaughtered a couple of bulls and have two complete hides, in raw form. What type of oils did the Romans use to tan hides? How long does it take?

We don't have any evidence for the type of oil or the techniques, so far as I know, but the modern chamois leather industry uses fish oil - think garum industry meets tannery and you'll get the picture... but lose some friends and get complaints from neighbours too, I suspect! I can ask Carol van Driel-Murray, but I suspect she'll just say we have no evidence (which is kind of the point; we wouldn't be here if we had the evidence!). Nevertheless, she may know some more recent parallels.

The main problem I have with chamois-type leather is that its principal property is excellent water absorption, so work up a good sweat or get caught in a downpour and the average legionary will be minging in no time at all! Still, it seems to be the only viable candidate for a leather that doesn't survive waterlogging, only mineralization.

Mike Bishop

[Crispvs]

If it is of any help, my segmentata is leathered with veg tanned cow leather which I would guess is back leather from the thickness of the least stretched sections. Each leather strap is about two thirds of an inch wide. This width is fairly consistent over the cuirass as a whole. I have been wearing this armour for up to 26 days a year for ten years now and someone else wore it for about the same amount of time per year for about six years before that. When not being worn it lives sitting upright in a box. Call me lazy but I very rarely break it down into its four main sections and only then for cleaning, after which I reassemble it.

Although the armour is fine when being worn, with no gaps or obvious changes in the distance between plates over the years, thus maintaining the normal level of overlap, when it is sat up on its own, rather than being worn or hung on a 'tree', it now naturally collapses down to a little under half its height, collapsing slightly more on the right side than the left. The bottom three plates on either side could be described a 'overcompressed' when it is in this state. All plates fall back to their normal spacing when it is picked up or worn.

The only leathers I have found to be problematic have been the horizontal straps on the breast and upper back plates, both of which I have had to replace, although the degredation of these might be less if I was to build the shoulder padding of my subarmalis up to a greater thickness which would result in the shoulder plates of the armour sitting differently.

I hope that this is of some small comparative use.

Crispvs

[Caius Fabius]

Yes, the bulls are mine. They are longhorn cattle, which trace their linage back to Spanish cattle, which goes back to Northern African cattle, which.. as you may know... were used by the Romans... (Peter Connolley used photos of some of my cattle for models for one of hiw drawings....)
I am slaugtering another one in a few days, but I was thinking of trying different oils. Olive oil was suggested to me by a scholar of Medieval Studies who makes recreations of Medieval Shoes.... He says that after a few weeks, the old olive oli smell turns from rancid to sweet smelling.
It has to smell better than the experiment of seperating urine into amonia for use in cleaning wool tunics????

[mcbishop]

I am slaugtering another one in a few days, but I was thinking of trying different oils. Olive oil was suggested to me by a scholar of Medieval Studies who makes recreations of Medieval Shoes.... He says that after a few weeks, the old olive oli smell turns from rancid to sweet smelling.
It has to smell better than the experiment of seperating urine into amonia for use in cleaning wool tunics????

Ah, but according to Vespasian, the money derived therefrom smells much sweeter ;-) ) Sounds like an excellent experiment to do and your results will be eagerly awaited... but that probably makes me rather sad, I realise. Hey ho!

Mike Bishop

[Graham Sumner]

Mike

Now you are back living down South you could perhaps contact Clayton of Chesterfield. They are a traditional Tannery and might be able to help with your line of research.

Graham.