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Hippeis, not Hippies
#1
What is the evidence that the Spartan Hippeis functioned as a Royal Guard as opposed to an elite unit that often fought in the vicinity of the King along the battle line?
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#2
They fanctioned as elite dignitary escort as in case of Themistokles when he visited Sparta and if memory serves me right, Cimon too.

Kind regsrds
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#3
There isn't really any direct evidence that they served as a royal guard.

The case is usually made indirectly. We know that the Spartan Kings did have a royal guard of some sort (100 "select men" according to Herodotus 5.56, who may be speaking of the early fifth century; a guard of the "most renowned" according to Isocrates Philip 1.6; and Dionysius much later on, I think, actually says "300 of the best" or something like that), and when we see the Hippeis in action they tend to be fighting around the king, so it's usual to assume that the hippeis in whole or in part constituted the guard.
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#4
Quote:What is the evidence that the Spartan Hippeis functioned as a Royal Guard as opposed to an elite unit that often fought in the vicinity of the King along the battle line?

Doesn't the one comment rather support the other - they were a selected 'elite' who fought around the king (i.e. also accompanying him to Thermopylai [size=85:b6aq19g6](regardless as to whether they were proper Hippeis or not)[/size] and Leuktra) - there to fight and protect (bodyguard) the king (royal)? Stephen Hodkinson and Paul Cartledge both refer to them as the Royal Bodyguard and A. Andrews as King's Bodyguard. Thoukydides (Thucydides) also said as much.

I know I have discussed this before, but I believe they were definitely a Royal Guard when required. I say this because the Hippeis were originally cavalrymen (knights) drawn from the Spartan aristocracy (i.e the king's peer group) for a specific purpose - given that all Spartan adult males were warriors anyway. That purpose was included being a 'bodyguard' - and indeed on occasion an 'honour guard' (as Stefanos indicates). The figure of 300 is quite common in ancient Greek armies - Elis, Thebes, Athens and others had special units amounting to that figure (possibly inspired by the Spartan original?). I think, although I cannot prove it, that the 300 = 3 x 100 from each of the three Dorian subtribes. Xenophon tells us the Ephors selected three Hippagretai to each select 100 of the best men.

Quote:... 100 "select men" according to Herodotus 5.56, who may be speaking of the early fifth century ...

Why three and why 300? It makes perfect sense if you think of the importance of the tripartite nature of the Dorian tribe. Although not referred to by many here - the Hylleis, Pamphyloi and Dymanes strata was still significant well into classical times. Although both kings' families were nominally from the Hylleis tribe - I think it would have been only fair and prudent to have equal representation within the Hippeis from each group. I assume the Olympic champions would have had guaranteed places when those selections took place.

Most quotes about them mention them fighting around their king. That's what a royal bodyguard does.
[size=75:2kpklzm3]Ghostmojo / Howard Johnston[/size]

[Image: A-TTLGAvatar-1-1.jpg]

[size=75:2kpklzm3]Xerxes - "What did the guy in the pass say?" ... Scout - "Μολὼν λαβέ my Lord - and he meant it!!!"[/size]
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#5
There seems to be a diffculry maintaining a large unit of Heavy infantry in the Archaic period.

300 seem to be within the means of every city state. Arcaic Mycunae seem to have only 80.

5000 elite hoplites in Argos were an aberation when Pheidon forced the aristokrats to foot the bill

5000 eparitoi in Arkadia were the eliteo of the whole Arkadian Koinon (comonwealth).
Some "Koina" were poor like the Phokians who fileded only 500


The 300 Spartan hippeis were mostly "tradition keepers"
The 5000 Homioi were probably a way to counter Pheidons epilektoi after the brutal lesson of Hyssiai 670 B.C.

Kind regards
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#6
I have often wondered, however, if the figure of 300 was literal or approximate. Certainly it would be 301 with the king in the centre of them all (not 299+king = 300 as Victor Davis Hanson would have it), but various authors refer to the Hippagretai as being leaders/commanders as well as selectors; and perhaps they were in the ranks in addition? I know some authors say that the Hippagretai were each a part of their respective hundred but I think they were clearly in addition to (each having to select 100 not including themselves). The figure of 304 is also actually quite subdivisable (8x38/16x19).
[size=75:2kpklzm3]Ghostmojo / Howard Johnston[/size]

[Image: A-TTLGAvatar-1-1.jpg]

[size=75:2kpklzm3]Xerxes - "What did the guy in the pass say?" ... Scout - "Μολὼν λαβέ my Lord - and he meant it!!!"[/size]
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#7
Quote:Doesn't the one comment rather support the other - they were a selected 'elite' who fought around the king (i.e. also accompanying him to Thermopylai (regardless as to whether they were proper Hippeis or not) and Leuktra) - there to fight and protect (bodyguard) the king (royal)?

There is a big difference between an elite unit that would fight in the place of honor along the battle line and a unit dedicated to act as a life-guard for one of the kings.

Quote:I know I have discussed this before, but I believe they were definitely a Royal Guard when required. I say this because the Hippeis were originally cavalrymen (knights) drawn from the Spartan aristocracy (i.e the king's peer group) for a specific purpose - given that all Spartan adult males were warriors anyway.


Hippeis in Crete were still horsemen in classical times and not a king's guard.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#8
Only in Sparta Hippeis were some "creme de la creme" unit.
As Paul says in other cities Hippeis meant social class able to provide cavalry.

The "royal guard"as understood today coresponded more to the tyrrants bodyguards or to Macedonia.

City states never relinquish control of the elite unit entirely to one person. Pelopidas is a notable exception.

So in my opinion the 300 hippeis were a unit at the disposal of King in case of emergency.

The king had two parastatae in Battle who preformed the role of actual bodygyards.

Agesilaos unit of 80 was also an aberaration.

Kind regards
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#9
Quote:
Quote:Doesn't the one comment rather support the other - they were a selected 'elite' who fought around the king (i.e. also accompanying him to Thermopylai (regardless as to whether they were proper Hippeis or not) and Leuktra) - there to fight and protect (bodyguard) the king (royal)?

There is a big difference between an elite unit that would fight in the place of honor along the battle line and a unit dedicated to act as a life-guard for one of the kings.

Indeed there is, however, there is also a semantic argument going on here. In later history certain units were definitely created as bodyguard units - from Praetorians to Napoleon to Hitler and so on (although obviously there was also an honourable aspect to this). I haven't used the term Life Guard as such. As they didn't do much swimming :wink: (sic) nor (more seriously) was an urban threatening proletariat in the streets - the kings didn't obviously need/require a permanent armed guard within their own city (they lived in houses rather than palaces for example). Also considering the fates of Kleomenes I, Pausanias (OK a Regent), Agis IV and others - it is clear the state didn't sanction a full time protective force of any size within the city. However, on campaign - given everything we know about the personage of the kings - besides his two immediate champions - he was clearly important enough as the front-line fighting commander to require a unit for his protection. We only have to remember the fighting that took place at Thermopylai and Leuktra to recover the fallen king's body to appreciate the importance of his role and his being. Therefore, I offer the suggestion that this bodyguard role swung into effect when hostilities commenced and the army marched. In peacetime (or what passed for pax Spartana) they would be held as a nominal reserve. We do not actually know for certain whether the hippeis existed for a set period (up to 30) - or for life - or whether the call-up/selection by the Hippagretai was at prescribed times or when general mobilisation occured. Nor do we know for sure whether they held the role for selecting replacements for fallen unit members, if the unit was a permanently standing affair (as it might have been if we can accept they were also involved in Krypteia operations against Helots). I think enough references exist from ancient commentators - as well as learned modern scholars to accept their role as a royal bodyguard on campaign and certainly on the battlefield. There were obviously positions of honour on the battlefield - one of which traditionally was afforded the Skiritai (for as long as they existed as a Lakedaimonian unit).

Quote:
Quote:I know I have discussed this before, but I believe they were definitely a Royal Guard when required. I say this because the Hippeis were originally cavalrymen (knights) drawn from the Spartan aristocracy (i.e the king's peer group) for a specific purpose - given that all Spartan adult males were warriors anyway.


Hippeis in Crete were still horsemen in classical times and not a king's guard.

Yes I know that. The Kretans also fell foul of disunity of competing (often piratical) city-states much like the mainland. It was also a rank of status within Athenian society. Hippeis may well have been the Greek term for cavalry but at Sparta the term had developed into something more specific - a term (rather than accurate description) denoting origins (think of grenadiers in late C18th/C19th) and status, rather than actual employment; although given the Spartans love of hunting and horses in general perhaps they were still supposed to be decent equestrians (although I recognise the problem with that theory given the dire state of Spartan cavalry)? We clearly have to disassociate the actual nomenclature from the reality of the constitution of the unit itself. I think we also have to remember the nature of the social status of the hippeis at Sparta. They were (initially at least and presumably throughout the classical period) drawn from the full Spartiate ranks and from the aristocratic class at that. They were in a very real sense the kings' peer group. There may well be (although Herodotos is not clear about this) a direct correlation with the 300 picked men who fought at the Battle of the Champions (although the nature of that conflict suggests the king was not present) in 545 [size=85:3ht93zgk]BC[/size] - given they were supposed to be the best of the best. Did the hippeis exist at this time? Did they surround both kings in battle when both kings actually fought (prior to Kleomenes I/Damaratos)? Were they created or more formally instituted as a guard once the decision had been made to restrict the royal prerogative to only one dyarch in the field at any given time? In any event, at some point they ceased being cavalrymen and became heavily armed hoplites - that much is certain.

Quote:Only in Sparta Hippeis were some "creme de la creme" unit. As Paul says in other cities Hippeis meant social class able to provide cavalry. City states never relinquish control of the elite unit entirely to one person. Pelopidas is a notable exception. So in my opinion the 300 hippeis were a unit at the disposal of King in case of emergency

I'd go along with much of that, although I reiterate I believe in the case of the Spartan Hippeis, the role although formal, was principly prescribed to campaigning and not dyarchical civic duties - and in case of a king's departure from the city he would choose to have the Hippeis accompany him - perhaps rather than the state formally relinquish them to him (although the two things may well be deeply entwined). Here we remember Leonidas I reselecting his guard as non-bachelors. Whether it was an appreciative Spartan state or the king/s in person who afforded Themistokles the honour of the Hippeis as his personal escort across Lakonia (or who gave him his fine chariot) - I really cannot say - but that would suggest the possibility of some (special occasion) civic duties too. This subject also enfringes upon the discussion as to whether Sparta was really a thoroughly militaristic society, or just created that famous mirage of being one.
[size=75:2kpklzm3]Ghostmojo / Howard Johnston[/size]

[Image: A-TTLGAvatar-1-1.jpg]

[size=75:2kpklzm3]Xerxes - "What did the guy in the pass say?" ... Scout - "Μολὼν λαβέ my Lord - and he meant it!!!"[/size]
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#10
The real Sparta is not the image that Xenophon or Plutarch gave to us.
Archaological evidence shows art culture and trade up to 500 B.C. - hardly a closed society.
The ephors were not in the "Retra" and appear after 670 B.C. (After the defeat in Hysiai - interesting :!: )

That implies that the Kings had more power than originaly thought up to a point at least.
The Ephors seem to dominate everything after the 3rd Messenian war.

The kings were attempting to curb the Ephors.

Is interesting to speculate that Kleomenens multiple wounds were the result of torture and Pausaninas story is the "official version" - aproved by the Ephors perhaps :twisted:

Peisistatos did coup d' etat with 50 clubmen I trus that given the chance 300 hoplites could do it easier :twisted:

Kind regards
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#11
Quote:Hippeis may well have been the Greek term for cavalry but at Sparta the term had developed into something more specific


Undeniable. But I think you miss the point Stephanos and I have both been making. There are Hippeis or Equites or whatever the local derivation all over the place because only the elite of mediterranean society can afford to rear horses and arm them for war. Thus the hippo/horse reference denotes only the ability to afford one. Grenadiers spring from units of semi-suicidal men who took up the most dangerous tasks during sieges and were treated as elites because of it. Other units are raised specifically as guards whose prime focus lay with their royal patron.

The Spartan Hippeis surely originated as the first type, from horse owners, then lost their horses, but retained their status as elites. The question is whether they would ever have seen themselves as the last.

Also, we must be careful with placing too much emphasis on the number 300. The one time we see 300 specifically tied to the King's life, or loss theireof, they are not the Hippeis. The 300 at the battle of champions may not have been either as you noted. And the number may not be so rare even outside of Greece, Gideon fought the Midionites with 300 elite men.

Kings often took very few men with them, and we are told as noted above that 100 was the number on one occaision. IN assuming the 300 hippeis performed this function are we obscuring a 100 man unit? Were I a Spartan king, with what I know of Spartan politics, my guard would be the members of my Phiditia and a core group most loyal to me, with a sprinkling of olympic winners now and then.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#12
But did they have Hippies?
Pecunia non olet
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#13
Quote:But did they have Hippies?

Well, they had dudes with long oily hair and beards, that loved to chant and dance while celebrating the Hyacinthia. That smacks of Flower-Power to me!
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#14
If you're going to La-ko-nia
Be sure to wear more'n olive oil in your hair
If you're going to La -ko-nia
You're gonna meet some fearsome people there

For those who come to La-konia
Summertime’s campaigning season there
In the streets of La-ko-nia
Fearsome people with olive oil in their hair

Across the whole Spartan nation mustering in formation
Mora in motion
There's a lot of frustration with the Boeotion Federation
Mora in motion Mora in motion

For those who come to La-ko-nia
Be sure they’ll wear olive oil in their hair
If you come to La-konia
Summertime’s campaigning season there

If you come to La-ko-nia
Summertime’s campaigning season there
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#15
Very funny Mike Smile D lol: Now turn your hand to Achilles Last Stand! :wink:

Or:

Dancing ([size=85:1lpw4ho1]Ground Of Ares[/size]) Days
([size=85:1lpw4ho1]Gytheion[/size]) Down By The Seaside
Hot([size=85:1lpw4ho1]Gate[/size])s On For Nowhere
([size=85:1lpw4ho1]Brazen[/size]) Houses Of The Holy
([size=85:1lpw4ho1]Dorian[/size]) Immigrant Song
Misty ([size=85:1lpw4ho1]Taygetos[/size]) Mountain Hop
([size=85:1lpw4ho1]Fallen Persians[/size]) Trampled Under Foot
Travellin' ([size=85:1lpw4ho1]Eurotas[/size]) Riverside Blues

:lol:

Or to quote Douglas Adams - "Solon and thanks for all the fish" ...
[size=75:2kpklzm3]Ghostmojo / Howard Johnston[/size]

[Image: A-TTLGAvatar-1-1.jpg]

[size=75:2kpklzm3]Xerxes - "What did the guy in the pass say?" ... Scout - "Μολὼν λαβέ my Lord - and he meant it!!!"[/size]
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