Hippeis, not Hippies

[Ghostmojo]

... All in all, a pretty dismal record if the Spartans really were an 'elite' army. It seems, despite their professionalism at drill and manoeuvre etc, the idea of Spartans being an 'elite' army was a total myth !!

This always comes down to what the composition of a Spartan army was. In many cases the Lakedaimonian-led army was an amalgam of other troops. Rarely was a Spartan-led army dominated numerically by actual Spartiate (or even Spartan) troops. However, I never said they were infallible or undefeatable, and it is certainly true that innovative tactics (Iphikrates, Pelopidas & Epaminondas etc.) got the better of them; and of course leadership was often a factor with brave - but not necessarily talented (Agis II, Kleombrotos I) king/generals in the field. Thermopylai itself is a classic example of how troops can fight - eventually being overwhelmed by sheers numbers - but not for the lack of skill, superiority in arms, bravery and tenacity - or indeed elite status. I also never said any Spartan army was 'elite', for all the reasons we are discussing about the actual make-up of a 'Spartan' army.

In the case of the Battle of the Champions, I feel this was before the period of typical Spartan training was established - also a period when Argos was arguably the equal in challenging Sparta for primacy of the Peloponnese.

My main point is that despite constant drill and training (which of course others - notably Thebes and Makedon) later concentrated on; the very nature of the Spartan rearing - i.e. the agoge had to count for something. The Spartiate wasn't just well-trained, drilled, equipped and disciplined. He was devoted to the art of warfare, hardship, and standing his ground. Their failings were rarely due to lack of courage or vigour, discipline or skill - usually other factors (like facing an enemy who didn't want to fight in a conventional manner). They were of course keenly aware that fighting the same opponents regularly was a mistake since those opponents would learn by witnessing. This was something that initially at least was avoided if at all possible. If they made serious mistakes they were macro rather than micro. There was a reluctance to innovate even after the lessons of Iphikrates, Epaminondas and Phillip II. However, I'm lost for a term that describes the Spartiate soldier who was so superior to other fighting men (who hadn't devoted every hour since they were 7 to military pursuits) if we can't describe them as elite. What was the point of all that decades-long training if any other state could match her standard troops with their own (who didn't devote their lives accordingly)?

You cannot generalise about these things. In the case of any Spartan army in the field - it depends upon what period we are talking about, and what composition we are observing. It is also self-evident that other powers came to recognise the value of dedicated soldiering as time went on, and then Sparta was far from alone in having crack troops. Other armies had always had brave and tough fighters - barbarians like Persians, Carthaginians, Italians, Kelts, Thrakians - other Hellenes like Thebans, Makedonians, Argives, Epeirotes etc. However, generally none of them had devoted their male population entirely to warfare as Agesilaos II aptly demonstrated with his tradesmen speech.

The myth, mirage, propaganda or whatever you wish to call it - about Sparta as a place of military prowess - lingered for a great deal of time, even well into her long drawn out period of decline. It was sufficient to make the likes of Epaminondas, Pyrrhos and even Phillip II think twice about Sparta being a walkover (even though they all came close to testing that proposition). It was sufficient even for the Romans to take note - with one much later emperor wishing to have his own Spartan (and Makedonian) totem units, and earlier contestants making use of Spartan troops in their internal struggles.

However, I recognise we have wandered off the subject a little here - as inevitably happens ... but this has been a great thread though, stretching as it has to four pages, and Paul B is to be commended for initiating it 8)