Gaesum-Soliferrum

[Komanos]

Part of the problem I have with you reasoning, Caturix, is that we find the gaesum/gaison mentioned in Roman and Greek sources written or referring to a time period well after the examples of Celtic all-iron javelins you've produced. I'm not doubting that the gaesum could be precisely the sort of weapon excavated from the late Halstatt burials in SW France, but I'm hesitant to connect a weapon from c.550-400 BC with written sources describing a potentially similar weapon from c.250-50 BC. I'd be much more comfortable with the connection if we had a similar weapon from a La Tene B-D context somewhere in, say, Central Europe, or central Gaul.

[Caturix]

Dear Rumo,

the fact is that in my opinion "Soliferrum" actually isn't really a specialized noun, but a noun gaved to something starting from its composition.... It's like calling a cudgel "Onlywood" :wink: and so I don't see a lot of difference with the term "olosideron".

The only all-iron javelin that have been founded in Europe during Iron Age & Roman Age is in Celtic (at first), Celtiberian and Iberian contexts, and it follows a quite common tipology.

And we know from the texts that Celts used an all-iron javelin, linked and characteristic for them, called "gaesum".

It's transitive property: if A=B and B=C, C=A

However, sorry if my previous exposition sounded not polite. It wasn't my intention.

With respect,

Gioal

P.S.

Aime Bocquet - Hannibal chez les Allobroges, La grande traversee des Alpes 218 avant J.C., Note 27

[Rumo]

the fact is that in my opinion "Soliferrum" actually isn't really a specialized noun, but a noun gaved to something starting from its composition.... It's like calling a cudgel "Onlywood" :wink: and so I don't see a lot of difference with the term "olosideron".

Well, can you direct me to a text where soliferrum or soliferreum is used with a different meaning?

[Komanos]

Working at resolving my own query. Thus far, the only weapon from a La Tene B or later context, outside Iberia, that matches the distinctives of the Halstatt gaisa from southern France or the soliferra of Iberia is the fragmentary find from c.300 in tomb 953 from Benacci.

[Caturix]

Working at resolving my own query. Thus far, the only weapon from a La Tene B or later context, outside Iberia, that matches the distinctives of the Halstatt gaisa from southern France or the soliferra of Iberia is the fragmentary find from c.300 in tomb 953 from Benacci.

I am dubious about that.
I've not seen the javelin of the Benacci grave itelf, just drawings, and it's associated with something that resemble a spear talon.

Can we be sure it's a Gaesum (all iron javelin) and not a part of a pilum like javelin (saunion) ?

[Komanos]

Can we be sure? Doubtful. At least in everything I've read the two fragments found in the grave are identified as parts of a single javelin, and reconstructed as such in several of the drawings I've looked up. If it is a single javelin, it is far beyond the length of any other 4th-3rd century saunion heads I know and closer in many respects to a soliferrum, though I've not seen a high quality image of the fragments. Perhaps someone else knows.

And let's recall, I'm the one asking you for any representative or archaeological evidence whatsoever that the all-iron javelin persisted outside Iberia during the La Tene period, or rather, during the period when we find our first literary mentions of the gaison/gaesum. This is the closest possible example I've located thus far.

[Kosios]

Just one thing i found in my latin dictionary: soliferreum can also be found in the form solliferreum (with two L), explained with the oscan word sollus=all rather than with the latin word solus (a, um) = alone

In this case, the two elements composing the word sol(l)iferreum would be exactly the same composing the word olosideron.
May the greek word be a "translation" of the latin/italic one? The translation could have been made using in a "specialized" meaning (javeline all made of iron) a generic word already existing in greek and meaning just "all made of iron".

Also, the fact that the word sol(l)iferreum is not genuinely latine could explain why in latin it remained only with the "specialized" meaning, losing the generic one.

[Rumo]

Just one thing i found in my latin dictionary: soliferreum can also be found in the form solliferreum (with two L), explained with the oscan word sollus=all rather than with the latin word solus (a, um) = alone

In this case, the two elements composing the word sol(l)iferreum would be exactly the same composing the word olosideron.
May the greek word be a "translation" of the latin/italic one? The translation could have been made using in a "specialized" meaning (javeline all made of iron) a generic word already existing in greek and meaning just "all made of iron".

Also, the fact that the word sol(l)iferreum is not genuinely latine could explain why in latin it remained only with the "specialized" meaning, losing the generic one.

Thank you for your hypothesis, even though it raises more questions than answers.

It seems this etymology was provided by Sextus Pompeius Festus. However his work survived in only one manuscript, fragmentary and damaged, thus the text should be read cum grano salis.

[Kosios]

I also signal that an "all iron" javeline has been found in the necropolis of Bobigny (near Paris) in a grave dated to III century b.C.

I don't have images, but a description (in french) can be found here, at number 113:

http://racf.revues.org/index654.html

[Komanos]

Thanks Kosios! Very interesting. The writers assert that we should understand the soliferrum as an imported item because there are no others known from the III c. (or later) in Gaul, but only in Iberia. At the same time, it has some unique features, which could imply regional variation if one were inclined to dispute the authors' conclusion.

[Caturix]

Still, in my opinion the all-iron javelin is not of an original iberic conception.

In the 6th, 5th and early 4th we found it in celtic context, in France.

At the end of the 4th we have the only esample in boic context (but it's quite atypical)

In the III we can found it widely used in Iberia (and there is an only one evidence in Gaul), since the I and maybe more.

Actually, the models used in Iberia are in shape and typology equal to the more ancient finds of Late Hallstatt Early la Tène.

In my opinion, this can be read as in importation of the Celts of the all-iron javelin in Iberia, where the weapon have been used widely due to the well known richness of iron.

All this should be read remembering that there is an all iron javelin characteristic of the Celts (attested by Roman authors) called "Gaesum"... and, I would add, a class of sacred mercenaries called "Gaesatae".

[Thersites]

The soliferrEum, never soliferrum (aka saunion olosideron in Greek sources), is an all iron, two metres long, c. 900 gr. heavy javelin, similar in function and effectiveness to the Etruscan, Roman or Iberian pilum (known as falarica in Iberia).
The earliest examples (and probable place of origin with available data) are to be found in Aquitania and northern Pyrenees in the 6th c. BC. It spread both to Iberia and Celtiberia early in the 5th c BC and became, along with the falarica, the commonest heavy javelin of the peninsular peoples. Over 237 actual examples are known in the Peninsula. It is very rare -almost absent in fact- in Gaul from the late 5th century onwards. The odd examples in the Paris basin or Southern France seem to be quilte late, post-Hannibalic.
As for the gaesum (gr. gaison), ancient sources considered the gaesum a Gaulish word, and it does not seem to have been used in Iberia as such word, in Celtiberian language, or even to describe the soliferreum. The Greek word for the soliferreum is saunion olosideron. It is true that S. Reinach in 1873 and again in 1907, and also Couissin in 1926, believed that the word gaesum was meant -or used-for an all-iron javelin; but this theory has been discarded long ago. Their use of Hesychius and Athenaeus is misleading IMHO.

Please note ancient literay sources (including Polybius!) are notoriously inconsistent in their use of military terminology, specially when applying known names in Greek or Latin to foreign weapons roughly similar to the ones already known by their audiences. But also when adopting foreign names for diferentr uses, something that often confuses things even worse. Also, some very late sources (e.g. Isidore of Seville)= only contribute to the confusion! For example, Polybius usually calls the pilum a hyssos, but in 18.18.3 he uses gaison for the Roman pilum , and in 6,39,3 he uses gaison for the hasta pura!

For more details, see Quesada Sanz, F. (1993) "Soliferrea de la Edad del Hierro en la Península Ibérica". Trabajos de Prehistoria 50, 159-183; and (1997) El Armamento Ibérico VOl I. Monographies Instrumentum,3, Montagnac, pp. 331 ff.

[Rumo]

The soliferrEum, never soliferrum

Thank you for your clarification. I also found only soliferreum in the ancient Latin sources I've checked, however for the sake of discussion I maintained soliferrum or soliferr(e)um, not knowing the origin of this word form.

It is true that S. Reinach in 1873 and again in 1907, and also Couissin in 1926, believed that the word gaesum was meant -or used-for an all-iron javelin; but this theory has been discarded long ago. Their use of Hesychius and Athenaeus is misleading IMHO.

In Athenaeus I've found so far one occurence in VI, 273, and here the gaesum is a weapon which Romans learned to use from Iberians.

In the Lexicon of Hesychius there seem to be two relevant entries, G 61: gaisos = embolion olosid?ron and G 64: *gaisos = makrokent?s ? kontos (and I have no idea what the first term really means)

[cagwinn]

As for the gaesum (gr. gaison), ancient sources considered the gaesum a Gaulish word, and it does not seem to have been used in Iberia as such word, in Celtiberian language, or even to describe the soliferreum.

Yes, gaesum is generally believed to have been borrowed from Gaulish *gaison, though there is a possibility that this Gaulish word might originally have been a loan from Germanic. We don't really have enough information on the Celtiberian language to be able to rule out the presence of a cognate in it.

See:
[url:2rri3bne]http://www.indo-european.nl/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=leiden&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cceltic&first=1&text_celtic=&method_celtic=substring&text_oir=&method_oir=substring&text_w=gwaew&method_w=substring&text_bret=&method_bret=substring&text_co=&method_co=substring&text_gaul=&method_gaul=substring&text_lep=&method_lep=substring&text_celtib=&method_celtib=substring&text_pie=&method_pie=substring&text_pok=&method_pok=substring&text_other=&method_other=substring&text_see=&method_see=substring&text_notes=&method_notes=substring&text_references=&method_references=substring&text_any=&method_any=substring&sort=celtic[/url]