Gaesum-Soliferrum

[Caturix]

I'll try to be as clear as I can...

(1)Seeing that Gaesum means a type of spear (non specific?) then anything that is used as such can be called so?

No.
Litterally "Gaesum" probably means "something that is thrown", BUT we now from classical texts that "Gaesum" and "Soliferrum" are SYNONYMS (cfr. Julius Pollux, Onomastikon, VII, 156)

(2) Saunion is I understand an Iberian word for a javelin, so really can be applied to any and all such.

No.
"Saunion" is a Greek word for a specific javelin.
Greeks use often "Saunion" to identify a characteristic javelin of the Samnites.
Characteristic javelin used by Samnites and other Umbro-Sabellian people are socketed with long shank, sometimes NUT NOT ALWAYS with a barbed point.
But again, the first evidence of that kind of weapon is founded in Villanovian's graves (VIII B.C. in Tuscia).
This weapon is reasonably the "father" of the pilum.

In celtic context you can found it in the II B.C. in the Alps and in Gaul, but before, in the III B.C., in Cisalpine Gauls.
Here a picture of saunion of the Boii site of Monterenzio.

(3) Soliferrum is a Latin route of iron so could be applied to any fairly iron based javelin/spear, suited well to the Iberian all metal javelin.

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As I said before, Pollux wrote clearly that Gaesum and Soliferrum are synonyms. However, the "all metal javelin" was ADOPTED by the Iberians but was of earlier celtic concept (cfr. Th. Janin, O. Taffanel, J. Taffanel, H. Boisson, N. Chardenon, A. Gardeisen, F. Hérubel, G. Marchand, A. Montécinos e J. Rouquet, La nécropole protohistorique du Grand Bassin II à Mailhac, Aude (VIe-Ve s. av. n. è.), in Documents d’archéologie méridionale 25, 2002, pp. 65-122)

[Rumo]

Litterally "Gaesum" probably means "something that is thrown", BUT we now from classical texts that "Gaesum" and "Soliferrum" are SYNONYMS (cfr. Julius Pollux, Onomastikon, VII, 156)
[...]
As I said before, Pollux wrote clearly that Gaesum and Soliferrum are synonyms.

I was curious and I checked the text. My understanding is that an all-iron spear (???? ??????????) is also called ??????. Is this what Pollux "wrote clearly" or is there something else I'm missing?

[Caturix]

Litterally "Gaesum" probably means "something that is thrown", BUT we now from classical texts that "Gaesum" and "Soliferrum" are SYNONYMS (cfr. Julius Pollux, Onomastikon, VII, 156)
[...]
As I said before, Pollux wrote clearly that Gaesum and Soliferrum are synonyms.

I was curious and I checked the text. My understanding is that an all-iron spear (???? ??????????) is also called ??????. Is this what Pollux "wrote clearly" or is there something else I'm missing?

Ehemmm.... there is something that you don't find clear?

?????????? = "all iron" = Soliferrum ("Solus" = "only" + "Ferrum" = "iron" / or alternatively "Solis" = "javelin" + "Ferrum" = "iron) also called ?????? ("GAISOS" = Greek lecture for celtic term "GAESUM" ).

[Rumo]

Ehemmm.... there is something that you don't find clear?

?????????? = "all iron" = Soliferrum ("Solus" = "only" + "Ferrum" = "iron" / or alternatively "Solis" = "javelin" + "Ferrum" = "iron) also called ?????? ("GAISOS" = Greek lecture for celtic term "GAESUM" ).

It's not clear to me how this text proves gaesum and soliferrum refer to the same type of spear, which is what synonymy would mean.
Livy wrote of Iberians hurling their soliferra (XXXIV.14). But for Pollux ?????? was Libyan and I must add Livy has also a mention of a Roman general being struck by a Carthaginian gaesum (XXVI.6)

[Caturix]

Ehemmm.... there is something that you don't find clear?

?????????? = "all iron" = Soliferrum ("Solus" = "only" + "Ferrum" = "iron" / or alternatively "Solis" = "javelin" + "Ferrum" = "iron) also called ?????? ("GAISOS" = Greek lecture for celtic term "GAESUM" ).

It's not clear to me how this text proves gaesum and soliferrum refer to the same type of spear, which is what synonymy would mean.

Really?
Can't do anything about that... but IMHO it's quite evident from the passage.

Pollux said that the "all-iron spear" is also called "gaisos"... if you want to find the latin terms "soliferrum" and "gaesum" (borrowed from Gallic) in a greek text, instead of ?????????? and ??????, I think you'll be always disappointed... :lol:

Livy wrote of Iberians hurling their soliferra (XXXIV.14). But for Pollux ?????? was Libyan and I must add Livy has also a mention of a Roman general being struck by a Carthaginian gaesum (XXVI.6)

Celts used an all-iron javelin since V B.C.

In III B.C., combining celtic influence to their iron richness, Iberians heavily used the all-iron javelin (actuallt in a more systematic way than Celts).

The Carthaginian army heavily relied on Iberian mercenaries, and heavily adopted elements form the military background of his mercenaries.

[Rumo]

if you want to find the latin terms "soliferrum" and "gaesum" (borrowed from Gallic) in a greek text, instead of ?????????? and ??????, I think you'll be always disappointed... :lol:

However Livy wrote about both soliferrum and gaesum, but no relation between them.

I am not disappointed at all by the occurence of Latin words in Greek texts, because there are plenty. :wink:
A rather famous example is that of ????????? and ????????????. More to the point, you can read Dioscorides' De Materia Medica to see what I expect from a Greek text which is said to support a synonymy.

[Conal]

Celts used an all-iron javelin since V B.C.

Do you have any reference to attest to that in the archaeological record please?

[Caturix]

Celts used an all-iron javelin since V B.C.

Do you have any reference to attest to that in the archaeological record please?

cfr. Th. Janin, O. Taffanel, J. Taffanel, H. Boisson, N. Chardenon, A. Gardeisen, F. Hérubel, G. Marchand, A. Montécinos e J. Rouquet, La nécropole protohistorique du Grand Bassin II à Mailhac, Aude (VIe-Ve s. av. n. è.), in Documents d’archéologie méridionale 25, 2002, pp. 65-122

You can find it on the net

[Conal]

Thanks , very useful.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Hey, Gaturix! From which book is the picture above?
THX

[Komanos]

Caturix,

It seems that the "gaesum" picture from page 1 refers to soliferra found in Iberia. The article you've referred to is a late Halstatt cemetery in southern France very near the Pyrenees. Are there any La Tene finds of all-iron javelins? I'd be interested to know if there have been, the nature of the gaison/gaesum in the period prior to the Roman empire has been of interest to me for some time.

[Caturix]

Caturix,

It seems that the "gaesum" picture from page 1 refers to soliferra found in Iberia. The article you've referred to is a late Halstatt cemetery in southern France very near the Pyrenees. Are there any La Tene finds of all-iron javelins?

Yes, at Saint-Macaire, South-West France, dated end of V, first of IV

However, Mailhàc is a VI-V site, so actually a cross section between Hallstatt & La Tène.

However, if you look to the designs of one of the all-iron javelin findings at Mailhàc ( http://dam.revues.org/docannexe.html?id=293 ) it is virtually tha same structure and aspect of one of the iberian.

The first findings of the all-iron javelins are all in France, and only in a second time you'll find the in Iberia, and it's notable that the tipology of the weapon haven't changed.

However, in my opinion there is simply no differernce between a Gaesum and a Soliferrum... I insist that for me the piece of Pollux is quite clear.

Literally, "??????????" (all-iron) is the greek term that means "soliferrum" (only-iron), and "??????" is a quite evident Greek lecture for "gaesum".

[Rumo]

However, in my opinion there is simply no differernce between a Gaesum and a Soliferrum... I insist that for me the piece of Pollux is quite clear.

Literally, "??????????" (all-iron) is the greek term that means "soliferrum" (only-iron), and "??????" is a quite evident Greek lecture for "gaesum".

I've searched for more occurences of the two words. As far as I understand, in Latin soliferr(e)um is a noun referring to a specific type of javelin. In Greek, however, olosid?ros/-on is an adjective meaning "all-iron" and it applies to spears and javelins but also knives, helmets and other objects. For example, in Plutarch's Camillus, XL.4 we find all-iron helmets (????? ?????????). Were these soliferr(e)a? :wink:
As such, is doru olosid?ron a soliferr(e)um or just another type of all-iron spear (javelin)? Whatever the answer, the decisive proof it is not in the text of Pollux.


For further research, here are two more occurences of all-iron missiles in Greek texts:

Plutarch's Aemilius Paulus, XIX.5: Fighting against Romans, in a rain of missiles (????), Perseus was wounded by an all-iron one (?????? ??????????)

In the Roman History of Appian we find a more detailed description. In V.82 we read of Menecrates being wounded by an Iberian all-iron (??????????) javelin (????????) with many barbs (??????????).


For all the links in this post I'm grateful to Jona.

[Caturix]

Ok... I'll try in a different way.

There is an all-iron spear, also called "gaesum" (May I at least read Pollux such? :roll: ).

These Gaesum is characteristic of Celtic people (Nonius, 555, and also Servius, VIII, 660).

In celtic context actually we archeologically find an all-iron spear.

The all-iron spear finded in celtic context is tipologically equal (cfr. pictures) to an all-iron spear that we find in Iberian and Celtiberian context.

The all-iron spear used in the Iberian peninsula is known with the latin term "Soliferrum", tha means simply "Only Iron".

Actually, I still see no difference if not terminological between gaesum and soliferrum (as is stated by Boquet, 2009)

[Rumo]

Gioal,

I'm afraid there's a misunderstanding. My objection has been that the text you adduced to secure your proof does not hold evidence for a "clear synonymy", as you suggested. However I haven't asserted that 'gaisos' in Greek would be something else than 'gaesum' (this seems obvious enough, doesn't it?). If you'd read more carefully my last reply you'd find out I haven't even discussed this word, so why the rolling eyes? I merely disagree with an ad hoc substitution of olosid?ron with whatever specialized noun, and I do hope for better approaches when philological arguments are forwarded and the meanings of words get under debate.

You may well articulate a persuasive proof based on several types of evidence, including archaeological findings. I'm not familiar with this topic (but still, can you expand on the "Boquet 2009" reference? Thanks!), and I have no intention to object to such an elaborate theory.

And one advice, if you don't mind. I don't know about others, but you'll never persuade a reader like me with repetitions. "Different ways" must be ... well, different. :wink: