Pompeii Gladius and Scabbard - Work in Progress

[sulla felix]

Barry, on the subject of forming the terminal knob (perhaps 'cup' might be a better term) most of those I have seen or have seen pictures of seem to have a horizontal rib embossed around the top on the cup. However, one of the examples from Vindonissa has a narrow metal (round or 'D' section) ring attached to the top of the cup in place of the apparently normal embossed ring. If you were to do this, forming the terminal might be a little easier than trying to emboss this part.

Crispvs

Thanks Frater, I'll see what I can do!

[Robert]

To answer the nails question, I'll have to go back and ask/beg them to take the locket out of the display case, as it is part of their permanent exhibition. Miks is no help on that, it does not even show the nails in the drawing of the reverse side. I'll contact the curator and get back to that subject asap (which may be ages!)

[sulla felix]

Thanks Robert Good luck with the project too. This thread has been most helpful for my project.

[Crispvs]

As promised, here is the other Guttmann locket.



You should be able to see a slightly larger version of the picture here:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/C ... cket-1.jpg

Crispvs

[Celer]

Salve,

I have held this second Guttman locket in my own hands, and I can only say that it is increadibly thin, almost paper-thin. It could never be a structural support to the scabbard as it is too pliable and fragile. It is purely a decorative addition, and all the structural strength must have been in the wood and leather that probably made up the main body of the scabbard. The engraved details on the plate are still very sharp, so the locket hasn't been corroded thin either.

Vale,

Celer.

[Robert]

Thanks for posting that, Crispvs! Very instructive and helpfull. It really makes you love RAT and all those great people that strive to share knowledge.

[jvrjenivs]

I have held this second Guttman locket in my own hands, and I can only say that it is increadibly thin, almost paper-thin.

This sounds interesting. Do you have an estimate of the thickness. .1mm or even thinner?

[brennivs - tony drake]

Brillant Crispvs D D
Regards Brennivs

[Crispvs]

I wonder if the fact that the metal is so thin has anything to do with the fact that the cross hangers were attached at the front as well as the back, judging by the rivet holes. If the rivets passed right through from front to back, they would have passed through both pieces of wood, meaning that the wood, rather than the locket itself would have taken the weight.

Crispvs

[sulla felix]

That is certainly a method attested by some surviving artefacts Crispvs, although from a review of Miks I cannot see a complete example on Pompeii type lockets, although I must confess that I am restricted to just looking at the drawings and photographs. Perhaps somebody else that understands German could review Miks and comment? If this is the case it would provide a very good indication of the maximum width of the blade on the Gutmann example (i.e. between the two rivet holes).

[Celer]

Salve Jvrjenivs,

The locket is literally paper-thin, less than 1mm. It is almost like foil - I had to be very careful when handling it as the simplest amount of pressure could have bend and distorted the plate. The more famous Guttman Pompeii locket is far more robust.

The only other sword scabbard component that I have examined that is as thin as fragile as this is the Long Windsor scabbard, and that is because it is heavily corroded and falling apart. Even the fragmentary locket from Caeleon is thicker than this.

Vale,

Celer.

[jvrjenivs]

Julian, do you mean less than .1 or less than 1? I like to work with foil of .05mm, but always thought it to be too thin for this kind of work, but gives you a lot of possibilties in designing your plate.

[Doc]

From what I gather speaking to Matt Lukes, it is not unusual for these lockets to be on the order of .4-.5mm thick. 1mm is quite thick; armor grade thickness. Some helmets that actually have a functional value are thinner than 1mm and are still robust enough.

I am not surprised that the locket is wafer thin since its main purpose is to look pretty not to protect or hold the scabbard together. The leather of the scabbard holds the wooden frame together while the strength of the crossbands is important because the sword is suspended from its loops.

[jvrjenivs]

Yeah. They should be thinner as 1mm. I normally use .5 for this kind of work. (also for beltplates etc). But I guess we're now talking about the below .1mm work. When it really get like foil.

[Doc]

Jurgen, are you referring to the foil .1mm for belt plates? If so, I think that 1mm for belt plates is way too thin especially for those like the Emperor/Cornucopia and the like. I think that .5 is closer to reality. I am not saying that all belt plates were .5mm but the vast majority of the ones I know of, were.