Leather segmentata!!??

[Matthew Amt]

How many pieces of leather survive from the period of which we are talking... Metal was expensive and required many more tools and skills to work than leather. I am not positive that Leather Loricas existed at all
but it is a possibility.

Yup, there are tons of leather objects that survive. Hundreds of shoes, tent pieces, shield covers, satchels, etc. There are thousands of brass lorica fittings, many still riveted to bits of iron or rust, and some of those even have remains of the leather straps still stuck to them, or at least mineralized remains. What we do NOT have is any piece of leather that looks like a lorica plate, nor any fittings riveted to leather with no trace of iron plate.

Iron was cheap, and the Roman iron industry was huge. Leather was also time-consuming to make and required specialized skills to work with it. Hammers and chisels are no harder to make than needles and awls! Heck, if you study the amount of time and labor that goes into making a simple tunic, it might convince you that everyone went naked back then! But they clearly had LOTS of clothes. You can't judge things like what armor is made out of according to modern misconceptions about costs and man-hours of various commodities.

Yes, absolutely anything is "possible", including Roman tutus and swimfins, as I like to say! But since we can not *prove* the *non-existence* of something, it's better to go with what we have evidence for, and work from there. It will never be the whole picture, but we've got a darn good outline so far.

Vale,

Matthew

[Astiryu1]

The cost of leather armor would be alot cheaper then ( I assume ) because of supply and demand. Alot more people then as opposed to now would have had at least a rudimentary knowledge of leatherworking.
Suppose I was a mercenary from somewhere in Germania ( after Ceasar of course ) I would equip myself with things I had on hand. The bull or boar that I had previously hunted and slaughtered would provide the leather and would have been processed previously. To give myself a good pattern I would copy (as best I could) the armor of the unit I was attached to. I also believe that mercenaries equipped themselves out of their own pockets and weren't issued standard "Roman" armor. Only roman citizens were the Hastati and Principes that formed the core of the legion. Most military caste systems had regulations and still do on uniforms and armament that prevented the equipment of their soldiers to be used by everyone under the sun ( espirit de corps ). I havent as yet found many books on mercenaries but what I have read supports this view.
The Time-Life / Great ages of Man series has been my main source so far in historical research because of the wide range, but I also read many smaller individual books to get more in depth. Plus whatever I can find on the Internet,although with a skeptical outlook which many can understand.

[Dan Howard]

We know that the Romans made limited use of leather armor. There is a surviving piece of lamellar from Dura Europos. There is a Roman text saying that leather armour isn't much use when it is wet. I've yet to see anyone come up with a reason why they would have made the segmentata typology from leather.

Hint: you may want to use the search function first before coming up with reasons that have already been discredited.

[Dan Howard]

The cost of leather armor would be alot cheaper then ( I assume ) because of supply and demand. Alot more people then as opposed to now would have had at least a rudimentary knowledge of leatherworking.

Stop assuming and look at the evidence.

Suppose I was a mercenary from somewhere in Germania ( after Ceasar of course ) I would equip myself with things I had on hand.

No you would be equipped from Roman supply arsenals and the cost deducted from your pay.

The bull or boar that I had previously hunted and slaughtered would provide the leather

Any animal you killed while in a Roman army would likely be processed and added to the communal provisions.

[Matthew Amt]

The cost of leather armor would be alot cheaper then ( I assume ) because of supply and demand.

Sure, a pound of leather *might* have cost less than a pound of iron, but as I said the iron industry was huge. We have good information about it, and literally tons of finds.

Alot more people then as opposed to now would have had at least a rudimentary knowledge of leatherworking.

Sure, most people back then had at least some idea of how their culture's technology worked, compared to today! Can you make a computer, or a light bulb, or a pump, or nylon, or a printed book? Etc., etc. Doesn't mean most of them actually DID those things.

Suppose I was a mercenary from somewhere in Germania ( after Ceasar of course ) I would equip myself with things I had on hand. The bull or boar that I had previously hunted and slaughtered would provide the leather and would have been processed previously. To give myself a good pattern I would copy (as best I could) the armor of the unit I was attached to. I also believe that mercenaries equipped themselves out of their own pockets and weren't issued standard "Roman" armor.

Wow, huge sweeping assumptions, here! German tribal warriors were mostly armed with shields and spears. Period. The sources of the time do say that armor was very rare, but there is no hint of leather armor at all. Not in the literary sources, not in the bog finds, not in the graves, not in the pictoral sources. It is quite likely that most of these warriors did not make their own equipment, in fact there is a mention in Tacitus that says something about the age at which a young man was *given* his first weapons. I don't know how often (after Caesar) the Romans used Germanic mercenaries, until the Late Empire, but I don't think it was very common. There were certainly auxiliary units, but as Dan says those were regular permanent army units, with (mostly) issued equipment. Auxiliaries should not be confused with mercenaries!

By the way, after the Germans under Arminius wiped out 3 legions in 9 AD, they piled most of the captured gear up as sacrifices in sacred groves, or threw it into bogs and lakes. Seems they weren't concerned about a shortage of iron or armor...

Only roman citizens were the Hastati and Principes that formed the core of the legion.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say, here. Yes, citizenship was generally required for enlistment in the legions, but by the Empire the terms hastati and principes were not really used to describe troop types (though they are used to describe centurial ranks). But not all citizens were Italian-born, by any means, and this really has nothing to do with the use of leather armor by anyone.

Most military caste systems had regulations and still do on uniforms and armament...

Sure, though we have no real proof of any such *requirements* among German tribesmen, that I know of. Equipment would be dictated by custom and tradition, and by wealth, as it was in many other cultures.

...that prevented the equipment of their soldiers to be used by everyone under the sun ( espirit de corps ).

Sorry, what?

I havent as yet found many books on mercenaries but what I have read supports this view.
The Time-Life / Great ages of Man series has been my main source so far in historical research because of the wide range, but I also read many smaller individual books to get more in depth. Plus whatever I can find on the Internet,although with a skeptical outlook which many can understand.

Ack, you need some decent books!! Time-Life even makes the Osprey series look like brilliant historical literature! General books on history or mercenaries will NOT have any decent detailed information on Roman-era military equipment, trust me. The Internet can be great, such as stuff you'll find debated here, or scholarly papers that can be found and downloaded or purchased, but yes, way too much of it is worse than useless. Or go to Amazon.com and buy some good books! Peter Connolly is a good place to start, and there are many others now. Here:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/bibliog.html

The best advice I can give you is to drop all your preconceptions and stop *imagining* and *assuming* what the past was like. You can't help but be influenced by modern culture and fantasy. Get good books. Read them. Ask us pointed questions about anything historical (well, mostly ancient!), and we'll answer as best we can. Learn learn learn.

And give up on the leather lorica segmentata. Really.

Matthew