More glue - bah

[caiusbeerquitius]

No. Most probably the original painting was from Philoxenos of Eretria, who lived in the 4th c. BCE.

[rocktupac]

Dead Link and what was there was in German. Wakarimasen!!!

Thank you I am very interested but I unfortunately do not know German. I am Confuzzed.

It's actually Danish wink:

[Astiryu1]

Same root system. I am a little more familiar with Finnish

[Dan Howard]

No. Most probably the original painting was from Philoxenos of Eretria, who lived in the 4th c. BCE.

So it can't be used as evidence that the Romans knew about linen armour.

[Paullus Scipio]

Perhaps not directly from that painting, but don't forget the Romans had all the written sources we do and more besides, (such as Herodotus and Xenophon, where linen armour was referred to), and there would have been actual examples hanging in temples as trophies too.

Various Roman writers too spoke of linen armour.

Examples are Pausanias, a writer in Greek, probably from Lydia, (floreat c.174 AD) who famously refers to linen armour hanging in a temple in Asia minor, and tells us that it was O.K. for hunting, but no good for war ( and if he was comparing linen body armour to the mail and 'segmentata' armour of Roman Legionaries, he could well be right.)

Strabo (floreat first quarter 1st C AD ) refers to Lusitanian ( portuguese) warriors in sinew helmets/caps and linen body armour.

Plutarch, a Boeotian /Greek, (floreat second half of 1st C AD) anachronistically has Iphicrates replace 'chain/linked' armour (mail) with linen corselets.

Cassius Dio, a Bithynian (floreat first quarter 3 C AD) refers to Caracalla's attempt to 're-enact' the great Alexander.

He (Antoninus) organized a phalanx, sixteen thousand men, of Macedonians alone, named it "Alexander's Phalanx" (Phalanx Alexandriana), and equipped it with the arms which warriors had used in his day. These were: a helmet of raw oxhide, a three-ply linen breastplate, a bronze shield, long pike (sarissa), short spear ( probably longche), high boots, sword (gladius).

The exact nature and meanings of the equipment referred to are the subject of much debate, but clearly Dio and his readers knew what a linen corselet was.

Caracalla's "Macedonian phalanx" was also referred to by Herodian, a Syrian (floreat middle of the Third Century). He also mentions, though in less detail, the phalanx of Caracalla.

Caracalla affected Macedonian dress..... He enrolled picked youths in a unit which he labeled his Macedonian phalanx (Phalanx Macedonica); its officers bore the names of Alexander's generals. He also summoned picked young men from Sparta and formed a unit which he called his Laconian and Pitanate Battalion (Cohors Laconica et Pitanata?)

When he (Caracalla) observed that the city was overflowing with people who had come in from the surrounding area, he issued a public proclamation directing all the young men to assemble in a broad plain, saying that he wished to organized a phalanx in honor of Alexander similar to his Macedonian and Spartan battalions, this unit to bear the name of the hero.

Furthermore (Caracalla wrote to Artabanus), the Roman infantry were invincible in close-quarter combat with spears

-Herodian.

There is also a reference in the anonymous 'Historiae Augustae' (late 3 C AD) to Severus Alexander doing the same thing for a war against Persia, though apparently no attempt to equip them in 'archaic' style was made....

He (Severus Alexander) made every attempt to...surpass the Macedonian king. He had a phalanx of 30,000 men whom he ordered to be called phalangarii, and with these he won many victories in Persia. This phalanx...was formed from six legions, and was armed like the other troops

-Historiae Augustae

(although this history is considered a concoction of gossip and legends etc the above passage is partially confirmed by a supposed 'unknown' tombstone of a legionary of II Parthica from the 230's AD in Persia whose epitaph allegedly describes him as a "phalangarius" ( if anyone knows more I'd like to hear it)



What is apparent from all this is that the Romans knew of, and were familiar with, the idea of linen armour.

[Paullus Scipio]

I may have answered my own question !
Confirmation that Caracalla's phalanx really existed and fought as a phalanx, is provided by the 3rd-century inscription of a trainee (or instructor?) phalangite, "discen[s? or t?] phalang[arii?]", of Leg II Parthica, from Apamea - [url:1swfkm3j]http://pub45.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm1.showPrevMessage?topicID=423.topic.[/url] ( RAT 1 )
This legion was apparently in winter quarters there in the early 3rd century, including in 215-216AD and 217-8AD.
Legio II Parthica was previously stationed at Alba near Rome by Caracalla's father Septimius Severus, and it is possible that legion that formed the core of Caracalla's phalanx.
This may indicate Dio was right that the first elements of the phalanx were trained as early as 212AD, using the men of II Parthica, and then
expanded with "Macedonian" recruits, the whole "phalanx" trained in Nicomedia in preparation for the and Parthian campaigns commencing in 214AD.
This force fighting with either spear or pike/sarissa may explain why Caracalla allegedly told the Parthian king that "the Romans had an infantry force which was invincible in close-quarter fighting with spears" (ten dia doraton sustaden machen - Herodian 4.10.3), using the same word that Dio uses
for the Macedonian-style pike rather than emphasising the legions' traditional throwing-spears and swords. Note that Greek writers tended to use their word 'Dory' for pike rather than the Macedonian dialect 'sarissa'.

( information courtesy of a post by Duncan Head on another forum )

[Astiryu1]

Are there any finds in say Etruscan times of anything resembling linothorax. I have a THEORY that if it did exist it may have been common in Pre-Roman Italy.I have read that early Roman forces adopted the Greek forces. Wasn't the north of Italy producing flax as well? That would be a good supply of materials. Again this is a "Theory" and I have never made it to Europe so wouldn't know for sure and accept if I am mistaken.

[MeinPanzer]

Are there any finds in say Etruscan times of anything resembling linothorax. I have a THEORY that if it did exist it may have been common in Pre-Roman Italy.I have read that early Roman forces adopted the Greek forces. Wasn't the north of Italy producing flax as well? That would be a good supply of materials. Again this is a "Theory" and I have never made it to Europe so wouldn't know for sure and accept if I am mistaken.

There is solid evidence for the use of linen cuirasses in Italy. Light-coloured and quilted cuirasses appear frequently in Etruscan art, for instance, and Leonidas of Tarentum, writing in the 280's BC, mentions sewn cuirasses captured from the Lucanians.

[Paullus Scipio]

Whilst I'd agree that linen corselets almost certainly existed in Italy, (Gelon of Syracuse sent linen Carthaginian corselets to Olympia as trophies, and at this time aprox, Cartaginians and Etruscans were close allies) the colour of depictions is hardly decisive, since a pale colour could just as easily be leather, as could a 'sewn' corselet.......

[MeinPanzer]

Whilst I'd agree that linen corselets almost certainly existed in Italy, (Gelon of Syracuse sent linen Carthaginian corselets to Olympia as trophies, and at this time aprox, Cartaginians and Etruscans were close allies) the colour of depictions is hardly decisive, since a pale colour could just as easily be leather, as could a 'sewn' corselet.......

Light-coloured cuirasses that are quilted, however, are quite clearly linen.

[Astiryu1]

Excellent! I was hoping I was correct.On the other hand; tooled leather (at least modern) comes default in tan. Are there any sites or works of art in particular for reference? This is also the first I have heard of the Carthaginians using "Linen/Quilted" armor. I unfortunately do not have access to much in the way of research. I am glad you guys could help me out.

[PMBardunias]

On the other hand; tooled leather (at least modern) comes default in tan.

Woven linen also comes default in tan/brown, it is only because bleaching linen was, and is, so common a process that you think it came as white. Leather could be rendered just as white, and through a process no more difficult that what it took to make linen white.

[Astiryu1]

Point taken. Of course the leather or linen could be simply painted white with an oil base to waterproof the armor. What kind of paints did the Romans/Greeks use? That would be a very cost effective way to do things. Olive Oil could be another option.
Pricey now (at least in the U.S.) but to them a common commodity

[Dan Howard]

Light-coloured cuirasses that are quilted, however, are quite clearly linen.

There are plenty of examples of quilted armour that include leather. Usually the armor is layered linen or cotton with a single layer of leather on the outside, but it is impossible to tell the difference just by looking at a painting.