Reenactment movie clips

[Jona Lendering]

My little nephew litterally devours Roman soldiers, especially his Playmobil legionary.

He surprised me with a question: why do legionaries carry two weapons? I told him that the sword was used after the spear had been thrown, which he understood.

I now want to show him a movie clip on which he can see some reenactors throwing their spears and drawing their swords, but I found it difficult to find something really fine. I found several items on Youtube, but most of it was of a rather poor quality, or a bit long (kids have a short span of attention), or more violent than I think is prudent to show to a four-year old boy. Anyone any suggestions?

[P. Clodius Secundus]

Jona,
We shot a lot of pila, draw, charge footage for the "Caesar's Bridge" episode of Engineering an Empire. I don't remember how much of it made it to air, but they've used a lot of that day's action as stock footage for other History Channel productions. When we first showed up they had more of a typical hollywood melee in mind, but once we showed them that sequence they reworked the camera angles and travel to capture the shock effect. When we go down to Roman Days Northeast in Maryland/Virginia one of the biggesest crowd pleasers is a drill where we loose our pila while advancing laterally across the front of the audience and then wheel/turn on line, draw gladii and charge right up to the rope line. It really makes an impression on the audience. I'll check with Matt Amt and his Legio XX guys to see if anyone has film of that.
Regards,
Randi/Clodius

[Jona Lendering]

I'll check with Matt Amt and his Legio XX guys to see if anyone has film of that.

Thanks!

[jkaler48]

Try this one from my unit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUOk3PcQ ... r_embedded
It is only 3:11 long

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!

There are two mpeg movies on my site, on the page of Roman Days photos,

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/rdays.html

At the head of the 2002 photos section. The first is about 500K, and shows us charging the crowd, which is fun because a youngster in the front stands up and backs away from the rope as we advance! The other (1 megabyte) is throwing pila, but it's kind of distant so I'm not really sure you can see us drawing swords very well. Here are the direct links:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/charge02.MPG
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/pila02.MPG

Yeah, the basic plan of throwing pila and then wheeling towards the crowd always seems to be popular. Not only is it a good display of tactical mobility, but it gives the audience a taste of facing a Roman charge. "Women and children first!" Har har har...

Valete,

Matthew

[jvrjenivs]

one of the best clips currently available I find Marc Sanders' 'Varus battle' clip
[url:2f6umriw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGa68DLuga8[/url]
Okay, it can be a bit cruel, but it has all the important charges in it.

The Nijmegen 2008 promo also contains good shots, but no charge with Pila, unfortunatelly.
[url:2f6umriw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mxsmaotaB4[/url]

[PhilusEstilius]

John.

I do hope you will not think me rude where after watching your guys throwing their pilum with the rear rank throwing over the heads of the front, if I might just say that I have always considered that legionaries should be in staggered lines of two at infact 2 meter gaps so that the rear rank has nothing to throw over the top of,
Then when the pilum throw has been done the rear rank as with the front draw swords step forward 2 paces to fill the 2 meter gap of the front rank and lock shields as they engage the on coming enemy.
This is what I have always considered the true function of the pilum throw with the Legion standing it's ground and not dashing off the high ground at the enemy but making him run up toward you this way giving the Legion advantage from the outset.

[Quintius Clavus]

One shouldn't lock the Romans into doing something, such as attacking the enemy, in just one way. They didn't as far as we can tell. The sorry thing is that we have so few good descriptions of battles giving detailed tactical information. Caesar is one, but even his detail only goes so far. Roman historians were much more interested in telling a good story or in making their particular point - and possibly assumed their audience or readers - fellow members of the Roman and Greek elites - would not need or care about that kind of tactical detail. They seldom got down to the level of what the rank-and-file legionary troops did, usually only in matters of individual heroism or the like - that good story, remember?
I've done the public demos with Legio XX in Maryland, USA, and we have usually thrown the pila, then immediately drawn our gladii, not waiting for an order and continued to move forward. The only command once the pila were thrown was to charge-which made us run, rather than walking. I was there the first year we had enough legionaries to need to form a second rank due to display-space considerations. I'll tell you, Matt was nervous when the rear rank of two had to throw pila over the heads of the first rank, who were also throwing theirs. We've had no misshaps then or later that I'm aware of.
We simply don't know how the Romans managed throwing the pilum, which is a short range javelin, in battle. How many ranks threw at any given time? Did every soldier have a chance to throw his pilum or pila if more than one was thrown by each soldier? How did they manage line changes, etc.? This is all stuff we simply don't know. In most instances, though, I would back the supposition that once the pilum is thrown, it makes sound tactical sense to continue moving forward with sword drawn to take on the enemy before they have had a chance to recover even a little from the effects of the pila. But even then, some commanders may have stopped their troops to dress ranks before the final charge at the enemy. That could be very intimidating, too, to the enemy.
We are all a bunch of real tiros when it comes to doing this as reenactors. We don't even come a little close to the Roman legionary's hours regular training.

[jkaler48]

Ancient sources have a few clues to Pila employment including throwing on the move:
"caes.civ.3.93": [3.93] But our men, when the signal was given, rushed forward with their javelins ready to be launched, but perceiving that Pompey's men did not run to meet their charge, having acquired experience by custom, and being practiced in former battles, they of their own accord repressed their speed, and halted almost midway; that they might not come up with the enemy when their strength was exhausted, and after a short respite they again renewed their course, and threw their javelins, and instantly drew their swords, as Caesar had ordered them.

Pila were thrown in "close order" as metioned here:
Julius Caesar. Civil War (English) [ Caes. Civ. book 3 chapter 39 ]
...which he quitted voluntarily; when his forces were got half down the hill, encouraging them by Antony, who had the command of that legion, he gave the signal to face about, and fall on the enemy. Immediately the soldiers of the ninth legion, forming themselves into close order, launched their darts; and advancing briskly up the hill against the enemy, forced them to give ground, and at last betake themselves to flight; which was not a little incommoded by the hurdles, palisades, and ditch, Caesar had thrown up to stop to secure their retreat,

The latest published reenactor drill the TACTICA from Ludus Militis page 31 http://www.ludusmilitis.org has the the Pila throw (from the halt) start like this:
"The even number ranks step left to cover the space between the shoulders of the rank to the front."

[Jona Lendering]

Thanks again!

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Indeed nice Varus clip !! say, does anyone of you know where those legati got their greek style helmets?

M.VIB.M.

[jvrjenivs]

The latest published reenactor drill the TACTICA from Ludus Militis page 31 http://www.ludusmilitis.org has the the Pila throw (from the halt) start like this:
"The even number ranks step left to cover the space between the shoulders of the rank to the front."

Although I certainly like the efford you all put into this manual, I don't see the point of posting this. Are you suggesting that because a 21st century re-enactor manual states it's done like this, that's the way the Romans did it? Sounds pretty odd to me. Indeed your other 2 sources mentioning trowing pila, but don't have much to add either. As is mentioned above this texts must not mean anything per see. Also, of course they trow their pila in advance. There is no logic in carriing short range javelins all over the empire and not using them. It's a weapon and so it should be used. Thats clear.

Also, your 2 sources tell a different story. The first one tell they are advancing and accelerating (why other should they lower their speed when they react due to the enemy). This will broaden their order. In the second text you're told they got to close order. So, that's the opposite. So actually we still can't say anything about the way the pila were meant to be used.

[jkaler48]

The latest published reenactor drill the TACTICA from Ludus Militis page 31 http://www.ludusmilitis.org has the the Pila throw (from the halt) start like this:
"The even number ranks step left to cover the space between the shoulders of the rank to the front."

Although I certainly like the effort you all put into this manual, I don't see the point of posting this. Are you suggesting that because a 21st century re-enactor manual states it's done like this, that's the way the Romans did it? Sounds pretty odd to me. Indeed your other 2 sources mentioning trowing pila, but don't have much to add either. As is mentioned above this texts must not mean anything per see. Also, of course they trow their pila in advance. There is no logic in carrying short range javelins all over the empire and not using them. It's a weapon and so it should be used. That's clear.

Also, your 2 sources tell a different story. The first one tell they are advancing and accelerating (why other should they lower their speed when they react due to the enemy). This will broaden their order. In the second text you're told they got to close order. So, that's the opposite. So actually we still can't say anything about the way the pila were meant to be used.

Just pointing out that the Pila throw drill has been changed since the Legio V video was made. That the ancient sources show different employment methods should give greater flexibility to modern reenactors in their portrayals. But some compromise is needed because of modern safety concerns also. No modern manual or drill can be completely accurate
because so much information has been lost. But even if we had a complete written manual we could still not get the drill right because of misinterpretation, changes in the meaning of words over time, and assumptions of the writers that we would already know how to do some things the correct way. The best that can be hoped for is that we do not look too ridiculous and an ancient Roman soldier would say "you have this and that wrong" instead of just rolling on the ground in uncontrollable laughter. And yes it was also a chance to mention the manual and the website within the context of the Pila throwing part of the thread discussion.

[A_Volpe]

http://www.youtube.com/user/2104dogface ... 57A3VXcshE

This video from friends of ours, this was taken at Kingston MA a little while ago.

Of course, this is just us practicing, but shows one possibility

- I agree with Quinton - Romans most likely had a number of ways of employing the Pila as well as how they formed rank and file depending on the situation.

I also like to consider the infamous 'countermarch', which could also have it's variations depending on tactical circumstance.

There is also the faint remnant on the Mainz relief, the one showing a soldier in 'fighting stance', just behind him is a soldier with a pilum held "at the shoulder", and not in any throwing position. It also appears he is holding his shield up and over - ala testudo - the fellow fighting in front. What is going on is anyone's guess, but I have yet to see any depiction of Romans about to or actually throwing thier pila nor how they are deployed to do this. We have a number of images of Romans 'carrying'/'shouldering' pila on the march, but not throwing them.

So I am pretty sure the Romans had a number of ways of doing it. Afterall, the definition of insanity is doing the same exact thing over and over and over but expecting a different result...A Roman formation with a one-trick-pony show is going to find itself in a heap of trouble pretty quickly, as an opponent is never going to react/attack the same way twice.
8)

[Jona Lendering]

Thanks all! I made a selection and sent it to the young boy. My sister tells me he was really impressed. Indeed, he even phoned me to ask the new question that was on his mind: "What is that bird for?" (= the eagle standard) He sounded really enthusiastic, and I was wondering if I should not give our little recruit "caligulae" for his birthday.

I wish I had not lost my copy of Connolly's Roman Army, because he might have liked to see those beautiful drawings.