Correct form of Iron Age British names

[Christian]

Does anyone know what the most likely correct form of famous ancient British names would have been. We know the Latin renderings but is there any concensus on how the Britons themselves pronounced these names?

For example you see Caractacus rendered as Caratacos, Caradoc and Cassivellaunus as Cadwallon - I know the latter two examples for each are taken from Welsh traditions, but as I understand it these came much later, and the western Brittonic language could have been quite different to the eastern.

I'd appreciate any thoughts or knowledge you have to share

Christian

[The Alexandrian]

Honestly, I can't so much help you as I can tell you that I sympathize - I've wondered the same thing for a while now.

On one hand, I'm inclined to think that the ancient British of pre-Roman/Roman times was simply an earlier form of Welsh, in which case "Caradog", "Cadwallon", etc. even with slightly different spellings, would still probably be the correct form.

On the other hand, one sees that when Gauls and Britons used the Latin alphabet to write their names they still ended them with the Latin "-us" - e.g. the inscription of Segomarvs (Segomaros), a Gaulish war-leader. Did Celts adopt the "-us" or "-os" ending just to conform to the Roman style, or because that's the ending they themselves used?

[cagwinn]

Does anyone know what the most likely correct form of famous ancient British names would have been. We know the Latin renderings but is there any concensus on how the Britons themselves pronounced these names?

For example you see Caractacus rendered as Caratacos, Caradoc and Cassivellaunus as Cadwallon - I know the latter two examples for each are taken from Welsh traditions, but as I understand it these came much later, and the western Brittonic language could have been quite different to the eastern.

Brittonic gradually gave way to Welsh, Cornish, Breton and Cumbric by the 6th century AD - it was a slow process, of course, and each language developed its own unique traits, but generally speaking Cumbric and Welsh were closer to one another than they were to Cornish and Breton, which make up what is called the South-West branch of Brittonic...it is likely, though, that all remained mutually intelligible well into the medieval period.

The proper Brittonic form of Caradoc was Carata:cos (a: = "long a"; the names means "Loving, by the way; and is cognate with the Modern Irish name [Mac]Carthy). The spelling Caractacus, which non-etymological, comes to us from a later manuscript corruption that arose during the middle ages or early modern period, IIRC.

Brittonic Cassiuellaunos (Latinized as Cassiuellaunus or Cassibellaunus in some later manuscripts) became Welsh Caswallon; Catuuellaunos (Latinized as Catuellaunus) gave us Welsh Cadwallon.

[authun]

Does anyone know what the most likely correct form of famous ancient British names would have been. We know the Latin renderings but is there any concensus on how the Britons themselves pronounced these names?

I don't think there is any consensus, just possibilities. Most of what we think of as Brythonic is primitive welsh back projected and most contemporary evidence is, as you point out, from romanised inscriptions. We don't know for sure, for example, that PETVAR, as in PETVARIA PARISORVM, does in fact mean 'the fourth'. It is thought it might be, but it leaves the interesting question, if it does, where are the other three centres of the Parisii? We don't know what Pen Y Ghent really means either. Back projecting primitive welsh may not provide all the answers and it just the best guide available to us.

It's the same with Old English too which is dominated by west saxon manuscripts from very roughly the 8th cent onwards. Also, it's a language used by an elite who were educated by clerics, often Britons, with a heavy influence from the roman church. We have no idea what a farmer in Lincolnshire in the 6th cent. sounded like.

best
authun

[Ron Andrea]

Nor do we know what Cicero or Cato sounded like.

While written Latin and Greek have been pretty fixed, the sounds of the various vowels and consonants may have drifted over the centuries, through the influence of learned neighbors or even peculiar accents of well-known speakers. One story (probably an urban legend) credits peculiarities of Spanish pronunciation to a king with a lisp. That instance may not be true, but spoken languages do evolve, even if the written is fixed.

[cagwinn]

Nor do we know what Cicero or Cato sounded like.

Well, that's not entirely true - not only do we have native ancient grammarians who discussed the pronunciation of their respective languages, Greek and Latin words were borrowed by numerous other peoples, and we can tell how the language was being pronounced at the time of the loans.

[authun]

Nor do we know what Cicero or Cato sounded like.

One story (probably an urban legend) credits peculiarities of Spanish pronunciation to a king with a lisp. That instance may not be true, but spoken languages do evolve, even if the written is fixed.

It is true that people copy people of influence. HRH Queen Elizabeth uses the 1st person plural in place of the 1st person singular, the "Royal 'We'". The press were quick to remark on PM Margaret Thatcher's use of the same.

authun

[cagwinn]

Does anyone know what the most likely correct form of famous ancient British names would have been. We know the Latin renderings but is there any concensus on how the Britons themselves pronounced these names?

I don't think there is any consensus, just possibilities. Most of what we think of as Brythonic is primitive welsh back projected and most contemporary evidence is, as you point out, from romanised inscriptions. We don't know for sure, for example, that PETVAR, as in PETVARIA PARISORVM, does in fact mean 'the fourth'. It is thought it might be, but it leaves the interesting question, if it does, where are the other three centres of the Parisii? We don't know what Pen Y Ghent really means either. Back projecting primitive welsh may not provide all the answers and it just the best guide available to us.

Umm, we certainly DO know that petuar- meant "four" in Gallo-Brittonic! Not only does it fall in line with the regular sound change laws from Proto-Indo-European to Gallo-Brittonic (and it also is the expected form behind modern Welsh pedwar), but we have all of the ordinal numerals from 1-10 attested in the pottery shards from La Graufesenque to prove the point. Penyghent is supposed to mean "Hill of the Heathens" (which would be Pen-y-gynt in Modern Welsh; gynt is a loan from Latin gentes).

Celtic linguistics has been around for more than a couple centuries now and has made giant leaps and bounds since the late 1800's, thanks in no small part to the advancements made in Indo-European linguistics in general, as well as the discovery of numerous important ancient Gaulish (and, more recently, a few short Brittonic) inscriptions.

[Ron Andrea]

Nor do we know what Cicero or Cato sounded like.

Well, that's not entirely true - not only do we have native ancient grammarians who discussed the pronunciation of their respective languages, Greek and Latin words were borrowed by numerous other peoples, and we can tell how the language was being pronounced at the time of the loans.

When I studied ancient Greek, I was warned (and have found some current support on the Internet) that, not only is modern Greek pronounced nothing like Attic or Koine Greek, but that we're not sure exactly what those ancient dialects sounded like. Or, more correctly, it was pronounced differently at different times and places.

Which is all I was getting at. Most of our discussion has to do with how names are spelled, not how they are/were pronounced, though of course the grammar conventions of Latin or Brythonic gives us insight into the word's meaning.

The other thing we all might note is the incredible lack of uniform spelling among the ancients--not to mention their apparently haphazard tendency to abbreviate. It's hard to get worked up over a name which exists only as a few letters on a weather-worm fragment of stone, metal or hide.

[authun]

Umm, we certainly DO know that petuar- meant "four" in Gallo-Brittonic!

That is not disputed. What I actually wrote was ,"We don't know for sure, for example, that PETVAR, as in PETVARIA PARISORVM, does in fact mean 'the fourth". Does it have some other meaning? If not, why does Ptolemy not mention the 1st, 2nd or 3rd parts of the Parisii? Why does it only seem to apply to this one place?

Penyghent is supposed to mean "Hill of the Heathens" (which would be Pen-y-gynt in Modern Welsh; gynt is a loan from Latin gentes).

I have seen this proposed etymology although it was referred to 'Hill of the Foreigners'. But other etymologies are proposed too, eg Hill of the Winds, Head of the Hill or Hill of the Border.

I am not saying that the words don't exist. I am saying that their usage in the past may be different from what we think of today. For example, bourgeois is usually understood to mean 'middle class' and is borrowed from French. It was a development of burgeis, town dweller, a different meaning. Although in France, it is not from Gaulish but from Germanic burg, meaning, in France but not in Germany, a walled town. Germanic burg comes from germanic berg and both are cognate with celtic briga and ultimately go back to PIE for hill. The word remains recognisable, but its meaning and usage changes. You can't back project 'hill' from 'bourgeois'. You have to both know the entire development from it's PIE origin and the linguistic route of the path of development.

best
authun

[cagwinn]

That is not disputed. What I actually wrote was ,"We don't know for sure, for example, that PETVAR, as in PETVARIA PARISORVM, does in fact mean 'the fourth". Does it have some other meaning? If not, why does Ptolemy not mention the 1st, 2nd or 3rd parts of the Parisii? Why does it only seem to apply to this one place?

Well, let's be realistic - Ptolemy by no means offers us an exhaustive list of every place name that existed in the ancient world - and while we don't now know why the place was called "Fourth" or "Quarter", there's no reason to believe that the Parisi ever had settlements named "Third", "Second", or "First".

I have seen this proposed etymology although it was referred to 'Hill of the Foreigners'. But other etymologies are proposed too, eg Hill of the Winds, Head of the Hill or Hill of the Border.

I trust my source for this example (John Koch's "Celtic Culture" encyclopedia) because it generally offers the most up-to-date and widely-accepted etymologies - none of the other ones that you mention seem very likely to me.

[authun]

- and while we don't now know why the place was called "Fourth" or "Quarter", there's no reason to believe that the Parisi ever had settlements named "Third", "Second", or "First".

Which leads to the degree of uncertainty to which I referred.

I trust my source for this example (John Koch's "Celtic Culture" encyclopedia) because it generally offers the most up-to-date and widely-accepted etymologies - none of the other ones that you mention seem very likely to me.

Koch does not make the claim that you think he does and the most widely accepted etymology is that of Eckwall, 'The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-names' 4th edn.'

The 1307 attestation is Penegent. Koch only explains the reason why the 'e' before the 'g' is reflected in middle and modern welsh 'y'. The question is what does the 'gent' element mean. It doesn't mean 'heathen'. That is only a possible interpretation.

In modern welsh we have three possible equivalents, 'gynt', 'gwynt' and 'caint'. Gwynt, winds is one possibility. Caint or Cant, very roughly meaning a border or a change, as in the start of, comes from proto celtic kantom and exists in Middle Breton: kant, Cornish: cans, Gaulish: Canto-mili, and Celtiberian: kantom. The english county of Kent is related.

Modern welsh gynt means formerly or of lore.

The question is, if the early attestation gent is represented by any of the known words, which one is it and how should it be interpreted? First Hill, ie border with or of the foreigners, or heathens is a possibility. Hill formerly or of lore, [which belonged to us] is another. There is certainly not the one to one correlation 'gynt = heathen' as you proclaim, and Koch doesn't make that claim either.

You'll even see Hill of the Vikings (breeze), not because 'gent' means vikings but because the hill was named, by brythonic speakers when it represented the extent of the viking settlement at that time.

best
authun

[Rumo]

Umm, we certainly DO know that petuar- meant "four" in Gallo-Brittonic! Not only does it fall in line with the regular sound change laws from Proto-Indo-European to Gallo-Brittonic (and it also is the expected form behind modern Welsh pedwar), but we have all of the ordinal numerals from 1-10 attested in the pottery shards from La Graufesenque to prove the point. Penyghent is supposed to mean "Hill of the Heathens" (which would be Pen-y-gynt in Modern Welsh; gynt is a loan from Latin gentes).

Celtic linguistics has been around for more than a couple centuries now and has made giant leaps and bounds since the late 1800's, thanks in no small part to the advancements made in Indo-European linguistics in general, as well as the discovery of numerous important ancient Gaulish (and, more recently, a few short Brittonic) inscriptions.

Such arguments somehow support Authun's point of view. Gallo-Brittonic is an encompassing term, covering some significant diachronic but also synchronic variation which is mostly unknown despite some "giant leaps" in linguistics.

I know little of Celtic languages, but since you mentioned La Graufesenque, have you remarked the local Latin (influenced by a Gaulish or Graeco-Gaulish milieu)? Examples: canastrum (instead of canistrum) < ?????????, paraxidi/paraxides (instead of paropsides) < ?????????, etc.

[cagwinn]

Koch does not make the claim that you think he does and the most widely accepted etymology is that of Eckwall, 'The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-names' 4th edn.'

The 1307 attestation is Penegent. Koch only explains the reason why the 'e' before the 'g' is reflected in middle and modern welsh 'y'. The question is what does the 'gent' element mean. It doesn't mean 'heathen'. That is only a possible interpretation.

I have the entry in question open in front of me right now:
"The hill name Penyghent in west Yorkshire is attested as Penegent in 1307, reflecting *Penn-@-ge:nt 'hill of the heathens' (Welsh pen y gynt)..."

Koch certainly seems to be making the claim that I think he does. In Old Welsh, gynt indeed meant "heathens", in line with the Christian usage of Latin gentes.

As to the rest of your message, I am not going to getting into a p*ssing match with you over this stuff. You are free to ignore my posts, I could really care less.

[cagwinn]

Such arguments somehow support Authun's point of view. Gallo-Brittonic is an encompassing term, covering some significant diachronic but also synchronic variation which is mostly unknown despite some "giant leaps" in linguistics.

He said "I don't think there is any consensus, just possibilities. Most of what we think of as Brythonic is primitive welsh back projected and most contemporary evidence is, as you point out, from romanised inscriptions"...

Now, while this may be true in some instances, it is not at all true in others. As I have already mentioned, there were many important Celtic inscriptions (and I mean fully Celtic and not "Romanized") discovered in the 19th and 20th centuries that vastly improved our knowledge of ancient Celtic dialects, so that we now speak with a degree certainty about many words. Additionally, Tacitus' ancient claim that the language of the Britons and the Gauls differed but little from one another seems to be supported by the onomastic evidence, not to mention the potentially Brittonic inscriptions published by RSO Tomlin.

I know little of Celtic languages, but since you mentioned La Graufesenque, have you remarked the local Latin (influenced by a Gaulish or Graeco-Gaulish milieu)? Examples: canastrum (instead of canistrum) < ?????????, paraxidi/paraxides (instead of paropsides) < ?????????, etc.

To answer your question, yes, I am aware of the mixed nature of the La Graufesenque inscriptions....what does that have to do with the Gaulish word for "four" recorded in them (which clearly shows no foreign influence).