Who were the Pannonians?

[The Alexandrian]

Can anyone give me any information on the tribes of pre-Roman and early Roman Pannonia? Were they Celtic in terms of culture and language, or did they represent at distinct cultural identity with their own language?

[Epictetus]

It looks to have been a very diverse area. I was in the process of gathering quotes from various authors when I stumbled across this from the Archaeological Department of the Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences. It looks to have a very thorough list of notes, so perhaps it could be helpful?

[Alanus]

After the Romans conquered more northen areas, now Hungary, the culture still appears Celtic. An iron-age fort in Bishkupen, Poland, now reconstructed into a museum, also has Celtic characteristics.

[authun]

Can anyone give me any information on the tribes of pre-Roman and early Roman Pannonia? Were they Celtic in terms of culture and language, or did they represent at distinct cultural identity with their own language?

The Pannonian tribes that I know of, Breuci, Colapiani, Daesitiates, Pirustae, Segestani, Maezaei, Andizetes, Azali, Ditiones and Jasi are all associated with Illyrians.

The 4th Cohort of the Breuci were stationed at Slack and Castleshaw.

best
authun

[Arminius75]

The Pannonians were all Illyrians but is important to note this: Since IVb.C. Celtic influence were strong on central and eastern Europe fron Western Europe, but many times as an cultural fenomena rather as invaders, Celtic peoples were an western Europe peoples rise from the mixture of different cultural elements form Bronze age as Atlantic cultures with many mediterranean influence and some central (just a few) and a little of nordic influence with a rivers basin system of comunication (Rhone specially), Pannonians were an Illyrian fenomena, we dont know wich name use the peole of Unetice, Lausitz or Hallstatt for themselves but definitevly they're not Celtic, is more akin to Illyrians or Venetic than to the Celts, on roman times Celtic peoples were active moving to the East, the former province of Vindelicia, Noricum and Pannoniæ had an Illyrian population on many cases under celtic rule (as with the Noricii) but archaeolgy and historiography show an strong illyrian subtratum, Illyrian were an very complex fenomena, ther is not an homogeneus manifestation, J.J. Wilkes see an divicion between Illyrians and Venetics, for me are the same but with an substantial difference: southern and eastern Illyrians were under a strong oriental inffluence and their language seems to be "Satem" but there is a lot of "centum" evidence too, many scholars said: "is for the Celtic or lain inffluence" but there is a archaic form, Venetic was a"centum" language, but we have almost nothig of Illyrian language except a few words and a few name, insufficient informaton to "clasifficate" an language as "satem or centum" , another issue were Messapian, peuceti, Iapygans etc. for some are Illyrians for another are an independent or perhaps an Italic cultural manifestation but evidence are still there...well perhaps i'm an archaeologist with a very unpopular point of view :wink: :wink:

[authun]

J.J. Wilkes see an divicion between Illyrians and Venetics, for me are the same but with an substantial difference: southern and eastern Illyrians were under a strong oriental inffluence and their language seems to be "Satem" but there is a lot of "centum" evidence too, many scholars said: "is for the Celtic or lain inffluence" but there is a archaic form, Venetic was a"centum" language, but we have almost nothig of Illyrian language except a few words and a few name, insufficient informaton to "clasifficate" an language as "satem or centum" , another issue were Messapian, peuceti, Iapygans etc. for some are Illyrians for another are an independent or perhaps an Italic cultural manifestation but evidence are still there...well perhaps i'm an archaeologist with a very unpopular point of view :wink: :wink:

It's not a problem. We just end up debating who were the Illyrians rather than who were the Pannonians. It's the same for any european grouping, even the Celtic speakers. No one group seems to have a unique set of identifiers, they all share this or that with another group or groups.

best
authun

[Alanus]

Pannonians were an Illyrian fenomena, we dont know wich name use the peole of Unetice, Lausitz or Hallstatt for themselves but definitevly they're not Celtic, is more akin to Illyrians or Venetic than to the Celts...well perhaps i'm an archaeologist with a very unpopular point of view :wink: :wink:

Perhaps Pannonians were Pannonians. We'll have to ask one the next time we run into one.

However, the general consensus disagrees with you on the Hallstadtt culture. They appear to be Celts, in fact the most early and well-defined Celtic culture... according to the more popular archaeological view. :wink:

[Arminius75]

Pannonians were an Illyrian fenomena, we dont know wich name use the peole of Unetice, Lausitz or Hallstatt for themselves but definitevly they're not Celtic, is more akin to Illyrians or Venetic than to the Celts...well perhaps i'm an archaeologist with a very unpopular point of view :wink: :wink:

Perhaps Pannonians were Pannonians. We'll have to ask one the next time we run into one.

However, the general consensus disagrees with you on the Hallstadtt culture. They appear to be Celts, in fact the most early and well-defined Celtic culture... according to the more popular archaeological view. :wink:

You`re right , the term Illyrian were used by classic authors to refer to those who lived on western Blakan and beyond, wich name use for themselves is unknow, but Pannonians used the term as auto-definition (well, some of them) as Venetic or Breuci etc. i see to the Pannonoians as the direct descendant of those peoples who develop the Hallstatt culture on centrla Europe and are very interesant to me for this reason :mrgreen:

[authun]

The ethnic mix in the area is complex. For example the Colapiani are supposed to be an Illyrian tribe created from the Pannonian Breuci along with the Osseriates and the Celtic Varciani. You may find this paper on the complexities of ethnicity of interest:

THE CELTS IN ILLYRICUM – WHOEVER THEY MAY BE: THE HYBRIDIZATION AND CONSTRUCTION OF IDENTITIES IN SOUTHEASTERN EUROPE IN THE FOURTH AND THIRD CENTURIES BC
http://tinyurl.com/y7stpvm

best
authun

[Arminius75]

The ethnic mix in the area is complex. For example the Colapiani are supposed to be an Illyrian tribe created from the Pannonian Breuci along with the Osseriates and the Celtic Varciani. You may find this paper on the complexities of ethnicity of interest:

THE CELTS IN ILLYRICUM – WHOEVER THEY MAY BE: THE HYBRIDIZATION AND CONSTRUCTION OF IDENTITIES IN SOUTHEASTERN EUROPE IN THE FOURTH AND THIRD CENTURIES BC
http://tinyurl.com/y7stpvm

best
authun

Yeah, what a mess to reconstruct , wow!! we as archaeologist have a hard job in front of us...centtral Europe and Balkans are a very ineresant places to study since neolothic times to present ...and beyond