Event safety

[garrelt]

Let's ventilate.
I think this is the best place for this topic because it's concerning events.

There are 3 areas to look at:
1) public safety
2) participant safety
3) Overall event safety

1)Public safety
-The public always has to follow the directions of the organization.
Well the past showed that public will take risks to see it all from the front row and not always listen to the organization.
Even block access roads and want to see the injured person(s).

2) Participant safety
- No sharp / semi sharp weapons on a battle field.
- No one participating in a crowd charge / battle who 5 minutes ago put a tunic on for the first time.
- Train regularly for better weapon handling and group coordination.
- Camp safety. Watch out for the ropes around your camp. A few years back a participant of an event dislocated his knee because he fell over backwards due to such a rope.
- Every participant must have an insurance that covers his/hers hobby.

3) Overall safety
- Fire rules. No open fire must be left unattended
- Access roads for Ambulance, Fire department and Police

Well this is a start.
Looking forward to your thoughts

[garrelt]

If you do a search about safety on this forum, you get 547 matches and strangely enough not a single response here. :?

[M. Demetrius]

For some reason, many people in the reenactment community neglect to codify the rules for safety. Sometimes the assumption is made that everyone will act responsibly, but that's a most dangerous assumption. Sometimes it's a matter of ignorance concerning liability. Sometimes, when expected to fill out a simple "we won't sue you if we get hurt at your event, or if we follow instructions you offer" liability release, people just won't do so.

Strange. If we send out kids out on a school outing, we don't hesitate to sign the release form. But if we send ourselves out to a potentially dangerous environment, we wonder why it's necessary to sign one. Or if we want to read "how-to" articles and follow the instructions to duplicate someone else's equipment or "combat maneuver drill", we aren't willing to hold the heads of the event/information site harmless if we hurt ourselves while engaged in the activities.

It's not extremism to want to avoid getting sued for a hobby, and it's not really in the power of the participant to refuse to protect the organizers of an event, yet still participate. It's not irrelevant either. I don't understand the hesitance of some to do so, but I've certainly experienced the ire of some who say it's not needful to sign a release form. I'm not unwilling to say to someone who's arrived at an event and refuses to sign, "Sorry, don't unpack your gear. Sign or hit the road."

In the US, event liability insurance is really pretty expensive. I wish we could find a way to make it less so, and likewise wish people who want to attend would take the precautionary step to help protect the event organizers without making a fuss. Not that anyone much cares about my wishes, really, but if I'm in charge at the registration table, it's not an optional thing.

The list below is very conservative, and extremely sensible. People need to grasp the bigger picture. One stray javelin bouncing off a solid object, one punctured person...one rack of spears falling over in a wind or something...one kid picking up a carelessly set sword...you get the picture, and it's not a pretty one. Personal injury lawyers love this stuff. They make a good living off of it.

[Agraes]

This is really important and interesting question, we did debate it a lot in the french-speaking community. My own group tend to have strict rules about security.

Most French antique re-enactment groups, be they doing early roman, late roman, Gauls or Germanics, use the rules sets by Gallia Antiqua federation. That is in fights involving several different groups, only wooden weapons are used, not even blunt metal. 'Spears' are made from a shaft with some padding at the end of it. We use sometimes a tennis ball covered by linen secured by small rope. You had the occasion to test this kind of fight at last LRE Garrelt so you know what I mean :wink:

Problem is that you can still injury people even with fake wooden weapons. Plus some guys may not restrict their attacks, thinking wood is completly safe... And it doesn't look very well on the field. But it's still maybe more secure than most blunt metal weapons, especially in battle re-enactments involving many unarmoured opponents, like 1st century BC Gauls or 5th century AD Germanics.

There is of course always a risk, but it can be lowered if all participants apply strict rules to themselves. That's at least no sharp or dangerous weapons on field, even by accident (you can always forgot your pugio or your seax and fall on it). No alcohol for anyone during the event until the public departure, or if someone drinks - especially if he is drunk - he is banned from the fights.
A general briefing for all fighters, followed by a weapon check, and a debriefing after the fight, can really help to eliminate all those problems. I had the occasion to experience this at last year Old Sarum, and it was done in really brilliant and professional way by Dan Shadrake from Britannia. That's really something I would like to see every time!

Other potential issues raise from the degree of realism you want in the fight. You can go for a scenario, when people know whom shall be killed at what point. You can go for 'touchs', ie a combattant being killed after beeing touched one or several times. You can just do some 'show' by hitting shields, or demonstrate elaborate fighting skills.
Scenarised fights can eventually be a tad frustrating for the re-enactor, yet I think they look better to the eyes of the public, and they help enhance security. That avoids bad behaviors such as 'berserkers', and people know exactly who will win and who will die.
Non-scenarised fights are maybe good with people wo are used to fight and train together. You fight with a partner, not with someone you barely knows, neither his skills, nor his 'potential dangerousity'.


Lot of accidents in re-enactment come from three things: horses, projectiles, and artillery. Antique re-enactment doesn't have the problem of black powder artillery. Projectiles however can be messy. It's nice to have javelins, but they have to be secured (shafts with padding like above for example, no metal head at all). Archers are excellent, but they need the right bows, avoid direct shoots, and the infantry in front of them shall get protected with shields, without some guy staying up smiling at the archers...
Horses are another thing. The horseman have to know right his horse and to have good riding skills. People of his group should be there if there is any problem with the horse. And the field should be closed to avoid the horse escaping in the public.

It's good to always keep an eye on public, especially if there is sharp weapons, fire or tools around. French public is not always very educated, and most of the time we use to put ropes around our camp to avoid people getting in.

That's mostly from my own thoughts and experience, and the reflexion we had in Letavia about security when we worked on our group rules.

[garrelt]

I know the insurance part can be very scary and get ugly or expensive.

In 2005 after 5 days of filming for German television i was put in an ambulance after falling of a horse.
During a test run in full gallop my spear got caught in undergrowth and I hit my head against a tree.
This caused me flying backwards of the horse.
No saddle, no stirrups and my shield, which was on my back protected my head and spine.
X-rays taken, no concussion and nothing broken.
The only thing that was broken was the 25mm thick ash shaft of my spear.
The TV company would pay the bill.
Guess what who got the bill, yeah right Me.
If I would be so friendly to pay the bill of 600 Euro as soon as possible.
End result, a headache, sore muscles and all horse riding scenes with me in it were deleted or were cut.

A year later, also filming for German television, a small accident happened.
Shooting a fight scene, no gloves and Deepeeka swords and other semi sharp weapons.
I was the only one with a blunt Gladius.
Why no gloves, well they were not authentic was the answer of the producer and his historical advisor.
The tip of a sword made a cut in a finger, this hurts and bleeds.
Went to hospital, surgeon had to come to repair the almost cut trough finger tendon, remove a bone splinter and sew it up again.
The bill was again for Me 300 Euros.

Thank god I have a good insurance for these occasions.

Luckily nothing happened to me or my son in Xanten 2009 when the lightning struck, we were only 15 meters away and one of my crew was in the Amphy theater .

You can't rule out everything.
But this is not my intention with this topic.

Everyone at this forum is in someway involved in shows, events, battles, tv, film , etc.
Everyone has an idea about do's and don'ts.
Why spread these ideas/experiences across this forum instead of putting these together in one topic.
Which could bring a worldwide "checklist" for participating in or organizing an event, show, etc.

Safety for all without losing the fun in taking part and with a high level of authenticity.

[garrelt]

Benjamin

A general briefing for all fighters, followed by a weapon check, and a debriefing after the fight, can really help to eliminate all those problems. I had the occasion to experience this at last year Old Sarum, and it was done in really brilliant and professional way by Dan Shadrake from Britannia. That's really something I would like to see every time!

The above is something that a lot of people grew up with, including myself and which i pass on to the next generation.
This is already in practice and on paper since at least 1992 as a set of manuals made by the NFPS.
The Norse Film and Peagant Society also know as The Vikings.
From that on a lot of safety manuals were made, like the rules you use and for example the German Codex belli.
These could also have been the base for SCA rules.
This is mostly called the western style or rules.

Sorry Dan nothing about safety in Tabulae Armorum Britanniorum 1991. :wink:

Within my group Teuxandrii.
-We train and fight with blunt steel.
Free of burs,cracks or splinters
weapons are checked before and during a training.
-Beginners start with wood, also free of splinters.
-A fighter is allowed on the battle field after 6 months training or 12 training days of 8 hours.
-Training spears have no tips. This is authentic.
-Arrows have rubber tips.
-Bows are not heavier than 30 pounds in draw weight.
-In training the whole body is target area.
We train and fight western and eastern style e.g. polish/russian( my personal favorite and no nonsense way of fighting).
In a show the target area is told by the organisaor of this show.
-Fight shields have a stitched rawhide rim and are made of 9mm thick linen covered birch plywood.
-Our minimum on personal safety is: armguards (vambraces), armored/padded gloves,a good helmet (minimum 2mm thick) and a subarmalis(gambeson) .
extra authentic metallic armor is optional.
If worn then : No plastics, kevlar or foam padding visibl
- Before someone of my group goes on the battle field he or she is checked for sharps on the person, next to the "normal" weapon check.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Personally i think we should be able to come up with a general good set of rules everyone should adhere to, as i already remarked in the
biggest legion turnout thread.

Safety should always come first in this hobby, as well as weapons discipline.

If mock attacks on the public with sharp swords are not safe, we should not do them.

I remember one of my first displays with the ESG, when during the cuneus towards the audience i tripped and saw my gladius lauched into the audience missing a sitting kid by a hair, and sticking out of the ground next to him.

As well a display in Wroxeter in which a ballista ball *wood, got caught by wind and plunged into the ground next to an elderly lady, who didnt buckle at all but sat there like those Britons always do in danger, undisturbed, untouched and apparently unaware of any impending danger whatsoever.

Also, in Xanten during artillery displays, when the audience, while seeing clear boundaries on a road in the back of the field, decide to walk that road at the moment scorpiones fire... and when told off react insulted, as if some fascist forbids them their free walk...

Safety should be a high concern, also on this forum, and i for one hope that a joint effort would lead to a general set of rules of engagement.

M.VIB.M.

[jvrjenivs]

but again we are sliding of to safety within fighting. I thought this was about event safety in a more general form. I think every group can make up his own mind about 'fighting safety' (not to say I don't like it be discussed here, but we did that already in the gladiatoral forum) Of course when more groups are attending a battle you sould agree on a general set of rules. Personally one of the rules in our set is that we don't fight with other groups, as we don't know their rules (and behaviour next to 'rules'.)

About event safety. Indeed when using horses extra precautions are needed. Like the poeple on the ground familiar with the animal, as suggested above.
Again I would add the comment I made in that other topic (aout biggest event). In Corbridge last year they had 2 lines around the field. 4 meters apart. Worked well to get a safety border Like that idea.

[garrelt]

Jurjen

I think that the Fighting safety is part one of this topic/discussion, because this is the first thing on a participants mind.
I don't mind being in a show/battle with other groups, you can and will learn a lot by training/fighting with them.
Reminds me of LRE1 were I fought, just for fun, in Late Roman gear against a Polish fighter in 14 th century gear.

I know from experience that people who organize events have different concerns.

So just let us take it step by step:
With personal safety first.
Then event safety and
Then public safety.

Later we can discuss food stalls and "lack' of sanitation.

[M. Demetrius]

The double safety line certainly has merit, especially with horses. Hooves are hard, and horses are heavy.

In a larger event, it might make it safer if some people are assigned to be "rope marshals" and keep spectators behind the barrier. In a smaller event, there may not be manpower to do that.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmmm, I think I'll stick to the infantry.....
Yes, it is a headache, trying to police equipment displays and also perform on the field, especialy in a small group, as
you have fewer people to spread about.
Liability insurance is somethoing you cannot do without, and a set of rules, either spoken or written down.

[garrelt]

Whether with a small group or with a big group, you always have to have at least one person guarding your gear.
A piece of rope will not stop someone from damaging or stealing pieces of equipment or your camera.
Heard stories about a chest with gear that had been stolen from inside a tent.
Nobody will pay attention if there is someone on the event selling things.

I have been training horses to go trough a shiedwall.
Imagine this.
A horse, wearing a chamfron which narrows its field of vision, freaks out by something, loses his rider and goes straight for a row of people knowing that these people are no problem to go though.
A horse being a escape animal by nature will go for the easy way out.
I've seen a horse losing his rider, who broke his elbow joint in that incident, and the horse going for a easy getaway.
luckily I caught the horse and it calmed down.
I thought about this incident and asked myself a question : Am I training a warhorse or a public display horse.
For me the answers was : I am training a public display horse!

For battles and duels.
In a battle there can be 2 scenarios:
The winner and loser are known, a good example for this is the re-enactment of the Battle of Hastings where the Normans win and the Anglo Saxons lose.
Or a battle with an open ending.
For a duel, I personally prefer an open ending, even as gladiator.

A duel or a battle with an open ending will keep the fighters focused about their way of fighting and the surroundings where the fight takes place.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes, I agree entirely there. The idea of being responsible for someone getting ahold of a weapon and then the potential consequences of
that do not bear thinking about. No security, then the display will have to do without at least one participant.

[garrelt]

A point already said before is the use of a double rope boundary.
This works as we all know to a certain limit.

But how big must the minimum space between the 2 ropes be?
In a crowd charge this depends on the weapons used.
With a gladius behind the shield, I would say 1,5 meters.
This is just in case someboby forgets, in the rush of the charge, to keep his gladius behind the shield.
With a shafted weapon this depends on the length of the weapon.
For a Lancea I would say 3 meters and for a Sarissa I would say 6 meters.

But this is always depenable about the space you get at an event and also the amount of people that take part of the Battle/ weapon demonstration.

[M. Demetrius]

Sometimes, a non-involved member, wife, friend, etc., can fill the role of camp guard. That keeps the maximum number of active participants at its highest.