Artemisia - Fighting Woman?

[nikolaos]

I've separated this from Ben's thread in response to your comment Giannis, as I believe it is a much more specific discussion.

You wrote:

>In the case of Artemisia wou don't have that much indication that she herself was expected to fight. I can well imagine her surrounded by some well armoured
>bodyguards and her as a queen giving orders,perhaps even sitting in the captain's chair, probably under a ptotected tent.
>It was certainly a ship that was drawing the attention-as it actually did- and we are not told that the ship actually fought. It was chased (!) and then it ramed >a friendly ship(no resistance) and then it was left alone.

In light of Herodotus' description of Artemisia it is far more likely she fought than not. In addition to the description of her ramming the ship Herodotus also says:

"Artemisia... followed the army from youthful spirits and manliness, under no compulsion... She was the leader of the men of Halicarnassus and Cos and Nisyrus and Calydnos, and provided five ships. " 7.99

"Tell the king, Mardonios, that I, who was neither the most cowardly in the sea battles off Euboea nor performed the least feats of arms" 8.68

The second alone, supposedly in her own words, would seem to indicate she fought. As he points out her manliness, and that she leads the men, which by definition happens from the front in ancient greece, would seem to tilt the scale heavily in favour of her putting herself in harms away, rather than hiding in a tent as you imagine.

>Artemisia herself is very likely to have been armoured (though marines in general might have been much less protected than land soldiers) but even if she
>was,we don't have a reason to think she had a hoplite gear.

As hoplite gear is as little as an aspis, it is far from reasonable to say, "we don't have a reason to think she had hoplite gear." If, as you suppose she wore armour, being a Greek she would most likely worn Greek armour. Did she bear an aspsis? There is no way to tell. But would she assume other aspects of the armour and leave off the most critical part? That seems unlikely as well.

Have fun!
Cole

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Good points Cole. I was not remembering the other descriptions of Herodotus about her. There was the other mention of her when Xerxes said that his woen became men and the men women,but this was in the light of what he saw happening in Salamis-and that wasn't a brave action in terms of what Artemisia herself was doing.
The detail about her character is the one that i find more interesting and relevant, that makes me imagine her eager to fight prooving herself equal to men. I guess a king can be considered brave according to actions he is not physically involved in.
She was a monarch of a city belonging to the Persian empire,and i don't find it unlikely that she may had had some eastern manners, even in the armour. I am still not imagining her in the thick of the battle bearing an aspis,because we aren't told of any such action by herodotus,and this would have been a nice tail to say!

[hoplite14gr]

Hmmm.....

I imagine being on the trierarch position she would be armored. (Arrows javlines and other nasty thingd flying arround.)
She could have a shield though not a proper heavy hoplite-shield. That's why she employed bodyguards.
The lass was royalty which means her education would not be that of a typical woman of her time.
Halicarnassos was also a "Doric" city. Doreans were generally more lax with women (unlike Athenians)

Kind regards

[nikolaos]

Stefanos,

I see quite a few assumptions in your assertion that do not appear to be borne out by Herodotus. Some of these points also speak to your comment Giannis.

>She could have a shield though not a proper heavy hoplite-shield.

Herodotus and other sources don't tell us one way or another. In fact, Herodotus talks about shields very rarely compared to Homer. That said, in the art Amazons are occasionally pictured bearing an aspsis, and Athena almost all the time, so the concept of a woman bearing an aspis in not inconceivable. Euripides even has Medea say, "I would rather stand three times with a shield in battle than give birth once." And while in the playwright's mind the only thing that might drive a woman to do so is to be injured in love, Herodotus tells us quite clearly that for Artemesia youthful spirits and manliness were enough to take her to war.

In addition, our modern experience shows that a woman is perfectly capable of bearing and fighting effectively with an aspis. So what is your reason for saying she could not have had a aspis?

>That's why she employed bodyguards.

Herodotus mentions no bodyguards. Nor, by all accounts, does a trireme have room for a lot of extra hands if it is to be swift enough for battle. So what is the foundation for claiming she had bodyguards?

>The lass was royalty which means her education would not be that of a typical woman of her time.

This assertion does not seem particularly relevant to the discussion (particularly as it is also unfounded). Certainly Artemesia is an exceptional case in her behaviour. Herodotus says as much, and the Athenians found it offensive enough to put a price on her head. That said, there is nothing to say, and hence no reason to believe, that her education would have been any different that that of any woman of suffcient status to wed a powerful man.

>Halicarnassos was also a "Doric" city. Doreans were generally more lax with women (unlike Athenians).

Halicarnassus does seem to have been exceptional. Artemesia's namesake followed in her footsteps when her husband Maussolas died, and took control of Halicarnassus. When Rhodes attacked she led a lightning raid to to surprise and defeat them. As to your more general statement about Dorians, were there a relationship to their "laxity" and the Artemesias, one would expect to see more Dorian women as military leaders in combat... Which we do, as in the example of the Argive women and Mapessa.

That's enough to say that there is a tradition of Dorian women taking on military roles either in extremis or out of pure, "manliness," as Herdotus would say.

Which just goes to show that while perhaps largely not openly, women in combat roles, possibly even as hoplites, in ancient Greece is not an unreasonable belief.

Have fun!
Cole

[hoplite14gr]

First of all I NEVER claimed that women cannot carry hoplite shields

I left umbiguity and I apologize.
I do not disagree that Artemisia could have carried a hoplite shield.
I do not doubt she would have carried a shield. (nasty flying objects)
I meant she need not have carried a hoplite shiled because she had bodyguards

As for fighting gals I write an article on them and I research the subject.
Telesila was from "Doric" Argos and she had her linage tracing to legendary Hercules
A large number of incidents involving women have a 80 percent "Doric" relation - the rest is filled from other tribes

I do not hold it as unreasonable thought of a woman in the phalanx ranks - most likely by "sneeking in" or by extreme necessity.
But there are more indications and educated guesses rather than solid evidence while there is solid evidence for women in battle although not hoplites.

Kind regards

[nikolaos]

Stefanos wrote:
>I meant she need not have carried a hoplite shiled because she had bodyguards

I'll repeat what Herodotus does tell us about Artemesia and combat, as it allows for some interesting possibilities when you compare.

"Artemisia... followed the army from youthful spirits and manliness, under no compulsion... She was the leader of the men of Halicarnassus and Cos and Nisyrus and Calydnos, and provided five ships. " 7.99

Other Greek leaders in the period lead from the front, in armour, with an aspis. It seems unlikely that a woman who was not willing to play the role of leader to the hilt would have been accepted in such a male dominated society.

"Tell the king, Mardonios, that I, who was neither the most cowardly in the sea battles off Euboea nor performed the least feats of arms" 8.68

In trireme combat the venue for performing a feat of arms is very limited. You can fight with the marines as boarders or against them. Archery is a possibility as well, but given the status of archery in Herodotus, it would seem less likely, especially in the context of feats of arms..

So, Marine or leader tend to point to a role in the active fighting, which tend to make Artemesia's carrying an aspsis more likely than other possibilities. Not a certainty of course, but far more likely than explanations which require the invention of factors (bodyguards, etc) which are not in evidence.

Have fun!
Cole

[Paullus Scipio]

Since, IIRC, all Artemisia's fighting takes place at sea, I think you should consider the possibility that she simply sat at the back of her trireme, and the trireme did the fighting - the only actual combat we hear of ( again without checking, so I am open to correction) is ramming. Even if her trireme got involved in a boarding action, one might consider that she was unlikely to have been involved in any personal fighting - if only because of the fact that she would be surrounded by a picked crew and 'epibates' all anxious to protect her.......

I think a "feat of arms" ( i.e. combat) might well include ramming another ship- this passage refers to the naval fighting off Euboea - and in any event one might also need to check the Greek since this passage is also translated:
"I whose courage and achievements in the battles at Euboea were surpassed by none....." ( Penguin; Aubrey De Selincourt)

[nikolaos]

Paul,

That is a good point. I've asked Christian to have a peek at the Greek and see what his take is.

Have fun!
Cole

[hoplite14gr]

From Perseus project the original:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ection%3D1

The term she uses is KAKISTI = worse ,meaning "worse or inferior to others ".
Most English texts follow the poetic translation of John Dreyden who are romantic but inaccurate.
The words Atermisia used do not relate to "manliness". She said she proved herself in Artemisio but proving yourself in a naval battle might relate more to seafaring skill rather than hand to hand combat.
She also said the kings men are "like women at sea" meaning the Persian/Skythian marines rather than Phoinicians and Cilicians or ther Carians.

Note: I do not deny that she could fight and her valor is beyond question but there is little to support assumptions that she was a hoplite.

Kind regards