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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
As one of my posts was a blatant copy of an earlier one I don't think I qualify for the round pub table quiz on this one but I will willingly hold the coats and "wedge" myself between the video juke box and the gaming machine for protection when the fisticuffs start :grin: .

There is of course, as Nathan has hinted, a potential understanding of the definition of defilade in this case. Perhaps assumptions are being made that it is a big enough feature to conceal significant numbers (a fold in the land for example) or a long feature on the flank of the axis of approach.

This is a subject close to my heart as I got "extras" at Sandhurst for getting enfilade and defilde mixed up! :wink:
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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I thought our very own Tacitus served out in Britain at one point on someones staff?
Don't kill me but it seems I read this recently in some book or the other...or not..as the case may, or may not be.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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Hello everyone,
Thank you for kind words of welcome.

I shall attempt to answer some of your questions but, as I'm not used to this forum stuff, it might be a little messy.

Quote:1, Altered climate, in 60AD where were we in the climate cycle, more or less rainfall than current climate.

I spent a lot of time examining this topic. Briefly, the battle took place during the Roman Warm Period when temperature was supposedly higher than today but 'today' happens to be a moving date when you study what we in the present call Climate Change. The details are too lengthy to relate. However, most writers 'assume' the temp was c.1degree warmer and wetter. One would assume therefore that it would be wetter in southern and central England but the latest studies of our warm period shows that rainfall decreases in these areas quite markedly - I don't think this is fully understood. Anyway, given the overall uncertainties already mentioned, I decided to not model the Roman Warm Period.

Quote:2, Altered drainage, agricultural development over 2000 years and particularly agri drainage over the last 200 years must have had an impact on accessible ground water/spring volumes and floodlands capacity to hold and release water.

The calculated hydrology model is naturalised and based on a 90metre SRTM topographic base. "Naturalised" means it is as nature would provide and without interference from man over the 2 thousand years (although there are obvious exceptions, e.g. the fenlands, major cities, airports etc.) The 90 metre base resolution does not allow small, local features, e.g field boundaries, to have an impact on the model.

Quote:3, Hardiness, if units like the XX are fresh out of North Africa I'm not sure how one might confidently assess their water needs.

I don't think the individual legionaries were fresh from N.Africa, afterall, the invasion was 17 years old. Hardy they were and acclimatised to the UK. Their water need is extrapolated from USArmy and Nato studies for marching, fully loaded, combat troops operating in temperate climes (not N.Africa). The USArmy gives a sustaining water requirement of 20litres/man/day and 12.? for the minimum. My 9 litres/legionary/day is based on a tougher man, marching for his life, not caring too much if he misses a wash or two. Also, my lower figure adds an additional level of conservatism to the hydrology vs water-need calculations.

Quote:I'm thinking about this in the context of the recently deceased Church Stowe theory,don't worry it's still dead, where we have a very permeable sandstone on top of Lias clay. There are a number of elevated springs along the obvious springline, and clear evidence of ploughed out streams and springs, so with CS one would have to assume a force utilising springs and wells. How can one factor in ancient spring yields into your model? With Dunstable on Chalk it would be far harder to claim water availability.

Factoring in springs and wells would be very difficult at the level I operate. One could only do so at the local level, however, our alteration of the landscape, together with the huge levels of extraction via wells (farmers etc.), would make this retrospective investigation extremely difficult and values suspect to a great degree. But, in anycase, springs and wells are adequate for hillforts etc. with, say, 100s > c.2000 people, but, Suetonius has c.15,000 people plus animals - he could/would not have relied on seasonal springs and wells. He is too experienced for that mistake.

Quote:In the area we have a number of Iron Age Hill Forts, Borough Hill, Hunsbury Hill, Castle Dykes and possibly Arbury Hill, all must have had a reasonable and secure water supply. I'm therefore wondering if the hydrology argument is too gross a tool for this task.

It's all a question of scale as I suggested above. The forts were designed for relatively small numbers, not the campaigning armies we have in the Boudican revolt. That is not to say that one of these old forts did not play some flank-holding part in the actual battle site: one can imagine the Atrebatan allies being placed there by Suetonius (if only to keep them out of the way!).

Hydrology too gross? Of course, I have to say, no. In fact, as far as I have been able to ascertain, the hydrology story has been missed by workers because the gross water needs of the armies has not been examined before. The measurement of the Roman needs suddenly places water at the forefront of the commander's mind. But, he had a tremendous ally - the Roman Army engineer corps(?) who planned and built the road system, such that, large bodies of legionaries would always find an adequate, river-based, water source at the end of their typical marching day - by design, not accident. Take another look at the Roman replenishment map - it tells the story. By the way, I think there is a lot more to be said about this topic.

Quote:In terms of the terrain analysis I'd be interested to hear others views on the 5% slope gradient you have applied, I don't feel qualified to comment on that. However the CS site has a significant area that falls within this slope range between Weedon Hill and Castle Dykes. So on this one I'm wondering if the selection criteria are too exclusionary.

5% is common which is why this one criterion is examined in the context of the others. It's the combination of criteria that provides the parsing of the terrain leading to the original 263 sites.

Quote:Big respect for the papers.

Thank you, that is kind.

Nathan Ross: your description (salt shaker etc.) of Tacitus receiving information of the form of the battle site may be correct but it is all we have to go on. If we don't accept the description then we must give up searching in a systematic fashion and rely totally on luck. There's no fun in that!

Nathan again: Why no mention of Silchester by Tacitus? Too small, insignificant, plus, he does mention Cogidubnus which, to his eyes and his Roman readers, is the pertinent fact. Also, when I read T. I always think he is writing as one who knows that the minutiae are well known by his audience - he seems to just drop in key phrases, names etc. to trigger their memories while he gallops on with the broad account.

Vindex: Interesting you should mention Sandhurst because I wrote to the library asking for assistance with the water needs of 18/19Century cavalry units etc.. I reasoned that if anyone had that information .... Didn't get a reply.

Regards, Steve Kaye
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Quote: Vindex: Interesting you should mention Sandhurst because I wrote to the library asking for assistance with the water needs of 18/19Century cavalry units etc.. I reasoned that if anyone had that information .... Didn't get a reply.

Regards, Steve Kaye

Sad

That's not good! PM me and we can take that further off line if you wish. The logisitics of cavalry is one of my favourite researches although I tend to concentrate on Roman. Happy to help if I can.

EDIT: There's also the fabulous Prince Consort's Library in Aldershot. 020 7218 9836 and 020 7218 0259 An amazing collection of military history the collection of which started in 1860 (strange that! :wink: )
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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Quote:Don't kill me but it seems I read this recently in some book or the other...or not..as the case may, or may not be.
By any chance ...? :wink:
[attachment=3065]CAM224_small.jpg[/attachment]
'Twas but a suggestion, based on Birley's Roman Government of Britain (2005), p. 281.


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posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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Ahhh, what better source could there be?? :mrgreen:
Is there evidence, I seem to recall the mention of something in the book to base it on, but it's been a while.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
Nice one Dr Campbell... :mrgreen:
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Reply
Quote:Is there evidence, I seem to recall the mention of something in the book to base it on, but it's been a while.
Maybe you need to buy another copy? :wink:
[attachment=3066]MonsGraupius_P33.jpg[/attachment]


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posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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Quote:... but naturally I defer to you on this Dr Campbell.
Well, sometimes I'm wrong. But this time ... :wink:

(You're maybe thinking of the striking evidence for North African traits in the Twentieth two or three generations later -- Antonine-Severan -- suggesting that a vexillation had perhaps beeen involved in Antoninus Pius' Mauretanian War.)
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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Well, I am just not in the same location as my copy, thank you! :wink:

But it would seem to support the idea that Tacitus may possibly have had first hand knowledge of the battle field?
He certainly managed to describe the location of Mons Graupius very accurately. Confusedmile:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
Quote:He certainly managed to describe the location of Mons Graupius very accurately. Confusedmile:
Well -- we know it's not 100% certain, but Bennachie is a d*mn sight more likely than some of the other candidates!

Now, back to Watling Street ... (with apologies for drifting OT) :wink:
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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Quote:Now, back to Watling Street ...
Or the Portway, as now seems a bit more likely... :|

One advantage for the Mons Graupius searchers is the large number of marching camps scattered about the prospective route(s). The copy of Roman Camps in England I have available only covers the area west of the Fosseway - have any camps turned up along Watling Street south of (say) Towcester, or on the road to Silchester?
Nathan Ross
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Vindex,
Thank you for the offer of assistance and the Aldershot contacts. Luckily most of my key questions were answered by finding:

Army Veterinary Department, Great Britain, (1908), Animal Management, Printed for H.M.S.O by Harrison and Sons.

I should not have mentioned the lack of reply from Sandhurst, afterall, they must receive lots of enquiries and if they see one related to 'Boudica', well, the crank-alarm bell must sound!
Thanks, Steve
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Quote:I should not have mentioned the lack of reply from Sandhurst, afterall, they must receive lots of enquiries and if they see one related to 'Boudica', well, the crank-alarm bell must sound!
Thanks, Steve

LOL - quite possibly :wink: Our military history lectures started with the Peninsular campaign then straight onto armoured manoeuvre warfare :roll:

Accounts from the Crimea make for interesting reading, but if you've got an answer, it's water under the bridge :mrgreen: (if you'll excuse the pun!)
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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Hello,
I did not do a very good job yesterday answering the questions/points related to Tacitus' description of the battle site, specifically, the interpreted word 'defile'. And, I had forgotten that I had previously examined this at the start of my studies. Apologies in advance if you have discussed this already.

Annals 14,[34], "deligitque locum artis faucibus et a tergo silva clausum"

Translation by Church and Brodribb, The Works of Tacitus, 1864-77, "chose a position approached by a narrow defile, closed in at the rear by a forest"

or

Michael Grant, Tacitus: The Annals of Imperial Rome, 1973, "chose a position in a defile with a wood behind him"

A repeat of 'defile' is used by most translators in 14,[37] - "clinging to the narrow defile as a defence".

So, the key word is "faucibus" [faux] variously translated as throat, gullet, jaws, gorge, ravine, chasm, isthmus, pass and defile. In this context 'defile' seems quite a tame description in comparison to 'gorge' or 'chasm'. What seems to be clear though is that "faucibus" is meant to describe a terrain feature that is rugged: a feature with significant elevation changes. It does not seem to apply to shallow-flanked river valleys, or indentations and hollows in gently rolling terrain. It's robust, not gracile.

But, as Nathan Ross suggests, did T. misunderstand what his father-in-law was describing? Did Agricola actually describe a shallow, gentle topographic indentation or, possibly, the defile was a treeless, linear feature opening out into a plain but the total set within a forest (I think of this as a frying-pan shaped, treeless area in a forest)?

I took the view that the way to answer this was by examining the military aspects. Suetonius has a relatively small force pursued by a huge horde. He can march 13km/day faster than the horde (my estimate) which gives him distance, time and the ability to choose and plan his defence (which in Roman legionary tactics amounts to offence, but I suspect the Brits didn't know that!)

What must he avoid at the battle site? Flanking, encirclement and besiegement. Given the time available (probably 2-4 days or so) would he have chosen a shallow topographic feature, which would be more easily flanked etc., than, say, a deeper river valley issuing from a high, steep escarpment? Surely he must have reasoned that his relatively short front line had to be supported on the flanks by whatever means were available. What better than steep, possibly wooded, escarpment slopes (or similar)?

Some writers argue that the flanking woods were the crucial defensive element in a proposed battle site set in low terrain. From my experiences walking through mature woods and forests (both in the UK/Europe and junglier parts of the world) this is not the case. Mature woods can be passed through easily on foot: undergrowth is sparse, tracks are frequent.

Admittedly getting through the dense margin, or forest boundary, can be difficult but the Brits have spent a life-time hunting, gathering woodland products etc. - they know how to infiltrate a wood/forest quickly and relatively silently. Of course, chariots or mounted men would probably not attempt a woodland approach to flank a Roman army.

And consider how well a legionary/auxiliary force might fight in a wood. Hampered by heavy armour, pila significantly less effective (embedded in trees) and, crucially, unable to maintain their coherent lines, the poor legionary would be confronted with a lightly armed, fast moving, woodland experienced tribesman. Suetonius would presumably have known of the outcome of such engagements in, for example, Germany and south Wales. Rout and destruction.

However, a wood or forest to Suetonius' rear, as T. describes, would probably have been useful in stopping the horde from approaching him from the rear.

The main point is that a wood/forest being relied upon to secure the flanks in gentle terrain seems to me to be infeasible.

But, a lightly wooded, steep escarpment either side of a defile is another matter! But in this case elevation is the critical defensive factor, not the wood.

In summary, Suetonius would surely have chosen the best possible site and not second-best! Best is a robust defile flanked by elevations, not one that is set in gentle undulations. So, I take T. at his word, faucibus = defile, as I have for his number of combatants.

Regards, Steve Kaye
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