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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
Quote:if this is a forum only for those better informed, then I will disappear as quickly as I arrived......
Certainly not. You are as welcome as anyone else and a fresh pair of eyes is always valuable. I must have misunderstood you; you seemed to be saying that it was all rather pointless. I would be delighted, if I were wrong.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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Dear Renatus,
I am sorry you felt it necessary to appear a bit defensive about my comments, but please rest assured I do not retreat at the first skirmish! If I did, I would only do so back to the Gask Ridge, where you could find me anytime with the ghosts of Legio xxx? I cannot recall without looking it up!
I am having trouble enough navigating this brilliant website, without extending myself further at my age!!!
More power to your elbow! Yiu will need it, my Boy!
Kind Regards
David the Scotti
Davidus
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I can see my visit will be a short one, John!

The only source is Tacitus, everything else (including him!) is speculation. But it can be fun if the speculators are bound by reasonable suggestions

Mr Kaye is aware of my scepticism about his analysis based upon water consumption/availability, which sadly, I bracket in the too much science not enough art in archaeology these days. If Collingwood and Syme abandonned Boudicca they probably had good reasons which are still viable today.

That's me off again - toodle oo
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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Quote:Dear Renatus,
I am sorry you felt it necessary to appear a bit defensive about my comments
No need to apologise, I assure you. It's just that you seemed a little irritated and I felt it only polite to reassure you. After all, we oldies should stick together!
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Yes, that's good. So shall we move on again? Here's another tack, unless it's already been covered.
If, as has been suggested, Boudica crossed to the Thames' South Bank (using the Roman Bridge? and more evidence of burning), would she have then moved West, possibly also burning Silchester? Although I do not know the Iceni population, I cannot believe she would have had a band of 100,000, leaving their homeland to it's fate, and moving into Atrebates territory.
Davidus
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david scott wrote:

If, as has been suggested, Boudica crossed to the Thames' South Bank (using the Roman Bridge? and more evidence of burning), would she have then moved West, possibly also burning Silchester?


Welcome David!

One of the main problems with the Boudica's Brythons going to Silchester is the sheer distance away from the Iceni Homelands. One of the reasons for me abandoning the Cunetio site is the time it would have taken the Brythons to get there (and home again).

Also it seems unlikely that SP would have left the Roman Bridge at London intact and if Silchester was burned in the rebellion I think that this would have been as part of the countrywide rebellion rather than Boudica's troops.

(Obviously I also am an amateur - as the others will verify! Smile

Tring in my opinion is still the site that actually fits all the scenarios - but I am biased....

Kind Regards - Deryk
Deryk
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Thanks Deryk,
So it looks like the balance of opinion is still North West, which seems logical, following ether A41 / Akeman Street, or further up Watling Street, possibly then (or not) Akeman Street (in either direction) What are the current opinions about Arbury Banks or Cuttle Mill?
Davidus
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Quote:What are the current opinions about Arbury Banks or Cuttle Mill?

Cuttle Mill is the same location as Paulerspury, I think. It's right on Watling Street, which is plausible, but a bit far north for my tastes and seems to require that the Britons make a big half-circular detour to the east in order to bring them round to face the Roman position.

You can read Grahame Appleby's thesis on Arbury Banks here, and it's nicely put together even if he does still support the 'cavalry dash' thing for no reason. His identification of the site (I would guess the position he has in mind is between Newnham Hill and Ash Hill, with Ashwell to the rear) seems to rely heavily on the reasoning that the "high stakes of the operation and subtle niceties of a carefully laid-out camp make the construction of such a camp unlikely and the more likely scenario was the need for a suitable redoubt." (above, p.62) Since Roman troops in the field routinely built marching camps every day, building such a camp (even with 'subtle niceties', whatever that means!) would present no difficulty for Paulinus. Roman commanders did not by choice fight from fortified positions (as we've discussed elsewhere), so looking for a readymade 'redoubt' seems unnecessary and using the presence of one as a criterion for identifying the battle site unsupportable.

However, the 'Roman' road (probably, like Stane Street, a pre-existing track) from St Albans through to Baldock would present a suitable avenue for Iceni withdrawal, as Appleby suggests. It may be that the site of battle does indeed lie in this direction - there's some quite rolling countryside along the way, probably with some suitable defiles...
Nathan Ross
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Quote:However, the 'Roman' road (probably, like Stane Street, a pre-existing track) from St Albans through to Baldock would present a suitable avenue for Iceni withdrawal, as Appleby suggests. It may be that the site of battle does indeed lie in this direction - there's some quite rolling countryside along the way, probably with some suitable defiles...
But why would Paulinus go that way? He had a force that he had already judged inadequate to defend London and he would be taking himself away from his major sources of reinforcement.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Quote:he would be taking himself away from his major sources of reinforcement.

That's true. Mind you, we don't know that reinforcement was a priority for him. He couldn't hold London with ten thousand men, but he may have believed that such a force would be sufficient to defeat Boudica given a suitable position. Which, in fact, turned out to be the case.

It's a broad argument, but the route I suggested does lie between St Albans (where they were, conventionally speaking, last sighted) and the Iceni homeland. If Paulinus wanted to position himself between the Britons and their homes, he could have looked along that way...
Nathan Ross
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What are the current opinions about Arbury Banks or Cuttle Mill?
I've stood on both of these and neither has a topography worthy of T's comments. "No wing anchoring here" - Steve Punt

Cuttle Mill is the same location as Paulerspury
Correct

He had a force that he had already judged inadequate to defend London
good point, his chosen site must have had significantly greater strengths and needed access to all reinforcements from North, East, South and West. So a site with strong topography (knocks out these sites) and a connected location.

but a bit far north for my tastes
only if you are desperately clinging to the last vestiges of the "parade" theory :wink:
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(where they were, conventionally speaking, last sighted)

where someone, at some point in the rebellion, put a torch to the buildings. This cannot credibly imply a single Iceni column (parade) on the move, convention? pah!

we don't know that reinforcement was a priority for him.
I'm pretty sure it would have been :-o
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Quote:if you are desperately clinging to the last vestiges of the "parade" theory

Unless you consider the movement of a large body of people in a single direction necessarily a 'parade', I see no need for such a theory! :-)

Nothing I've suggested requires the Britons to move for more than a couple of days as a combined force...


Quote:someone, at some point in the rebellion, put a torch to the buildings. This cannot credibly imply a single Iceni column (parade) on the move, convention? pah!

Mmm, well. Tacitus provides the convention, I think: " like ruin fell on the town of Verulamium" (eadem clades municipio Verulamio fuit). This certainly implies to me that the same or similar people destroyed London and also destroyed St Albans, and did so in similar fashion...

Mind you, Tacitus could have been mistaken, in which case :eek:


Quote:I'm pretty sure it would have been

You might be, but was he? Once Paulinus discovered that the Second were out of the picture, he may have realised that time was short and he needed to use the troops he had available and not hang around waiting for more. Longer term reinforcement may not have been an issue - finding a good tactical site would be more pressing.
Nathan Ross
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I have some other questions, but unsure whether this is the appropriate thread. Please forgive me if these are a little naive.

If, as Richard Hingley suggests, B (royal birth, etc) was related to Cartimandua, then SP had every reason to engage with her to stop the risk of an amalgamation of forces. This might be a reason for B not immediately returning home and might also argue for a site further North of the Chilterns.

Where did the Iceni, Trinovantes (Briganti?) get their armory from? I thought being a client kingdom involved giving up the right to bear arms.

Is there no further mention of B's daughters? I have read somewhere that it was illegal to crucify a young girl, hence ritual abuse. However, that apparently did not stop the Romans in their later systematic extermination of the Iceni.

Who was the woman who succeeded Cartimandua around AD 85? Is this correct? I cannot find the source.

Was T. really mistaken when, in Calgacus'speech, he referred to ' Under a woman's leadership the Brigantes were able to burn a colony, to storm a camp......'
Davidus
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Quote:but a bit far north for my tastes
only if you are desperately clinging to the last vestiges of the "parade" theory :wink:
I know that you have spoken of the "parade" theory before but I am not sure that I have fully understood what you meant. Could you explain, please?


Quote:Once Paulinus discovered that the Second were out of the picture, he may have realised that time was short and he needed to use the troops he had available and not hang around waiting for more. Longer term reinforcement may not have been an issue - finding a good tactical site would be more pressing.
This suggests that Paulinus had set out to position himself where he could intercept the Boudican force on its way home. Both Dio and Tacitus imply the contrary. Dio says that he was forced to give battle against his better judgement because the enemy was pressing upon him and he was running short of food, while Tacitus says that he decided to put an end to delay and give battle. What was he delaying for? The logical explanation is that he was waiting for reinforcements. It is hardly likely that he would do this in a position in which he could be cut off from those reinforcements.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply


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