Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.

[Nathan Ross]

There is, as far as I'm aware, no evidence of first-century burning or other destruction at any site north of St Albans. However, the interpretation of such evidence tends to be driven by our understanding of the historical narrative: the rather limited fire damage at St Albans might have been considered accidental were it not for the mention in Tacitus...

The settlements on the road probably existed, although perhaps as supply posts, small forts and camps, or farms rather than the towns they later became. The initial Roman settlement of Durocobrivis was probably not in the same location as modern Dunstable, however, but a mile or so north-west, near Tilsworth, where Watling Street crosses the Ouzel Brook.

Archaeology at this site has revealed traces of thirty-two ditch sections, with pottery dating between the first and second centuries. Much of this is probably civilian, but as it's a level site close to the road and a river crossing I think it's quite likely that this was also the approximate position of one of more marching camps as well.

So, of course, I would place Paulinus's camp at Tilsworth, which also solves the water supply problem for the Dunstable battle site rather neatly!

[Nathan Ross]

Those who've followed this old thread over the years (and perhaps others too!) might be interested in the attached article by Barry Horne, from this year's edition of South Midlands Archaeology.

Mr Horne attended the Warwick conference last year, putting forward a Dunstable site hypothesis very similar to my own; I've recently corresponded with him, and shared my thoughts as expressed here on RAT. This SMA article covers no new ground in particular, but it's interesting to see the points reiterated and newly presented, so (with Mr Horne's permission) I thought that I'd share it here.

[davidscott]

Hi Nathan,
I have a post from you about Barry Horne's theory about Dunstable, but your link seems to direct me to this, your last post on the site.
David

[Nathan Ross]

How strange! Yes, I was trying to add a post here with a pdf of Barry Horne's recent article in South Midlands Archaeology, but I found I couldn't attach the file so I deleted the post... it must still have registered as an email notification though.

Anyway, the article supports the site at Dunstable / Manshead - Barry came up with his theory independently of mine. There's no new evidence presented, but it's interesting to see the argument reframed.

If anybody would be interested in looking at it, PM me with an email address and I'll send a copy.

[John1]

Any news from the Battlefields Trust nosing around Dunstable project?
the question is not just aimed at Nathan but anyone with any knowledge of their activities that is willing to share outcomes.
Nathan you have been PM'd by me,

[John1]

Thanks for the paper Nathan. It makes my earlier question redundant as the "Watling Street Project" seems to have drawn a blank on any finds, I think that conclusion is probably the most significant point of the paper. A strong enough candidate to warrant investigation but the subsequent investigation draws a blank, clear parallels with the field work at Paulerspury (Cuttle Mill) and Mancetter where the "no evidence" position has not dissuaded supporters.

So where next I wonder?

The paper explicitly pours doubt on the site being north of Dunstable on the basis that the Iceni parade is only viable movement model :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: So north it must be......

[Nathan Ross]

on the basis that the Iceni parade is only viable movement model

Well, as I've said before, this is only if you consider any movement of large numbers of people in a single direction to be a 'parade'... ;-)

[Renatus]

What is this "parade" business, anyway?

[mcbishop]

So where next I wonder?

To the south-east of London, I reckon ;-)

Mike Bishop

[John1]

"parade
pəˈreɪd
noun
1.
a public procession, especially one celebrating a special day or event."

Hence the "Parade theory" - what most battlefield hunters on this topic think the Iceni did and therefore assert that the location of the battle can be found by tracing a linear route which all Iceni took. This is often further utilised by the association with marching time, i..e we know the route (we don't) we know the numbers (we don't) we know the speed (we don't) therefore the battlefield must be here X (Y).

The alternative is that the Iceni didn't elect to hobble themselves by slavishly following the indirect new fangled Roman Roads whose vertical profile and location didn't suit their Modus Operandi thereby throwing themselves into the hands of the Romans.

The term is also deployed on RAT as a term of derision to pour scorn on all who do not accept my views on the matter and to see if I can get a rise out of Nathan. :twisted:

[Nathan Ross]

to see if I can get a rise out of Nathan

You can! And you have! :-)

Armies - whether regular or irregular - tend to adopt an approximately linear formation when moving from A to B. They also (especially when moving with wheeled transport) tend to follow established routes and roads where available.

If Boudica and her army, which included large numbers of carts, were at point A (London, or St Albans) and wanted to get to point B (... anywhere else!) they would necessarily move in that direction in something approximating a line of march. Perhaps not a very regular one, and perhaps not a single one either - see elsewhere for my 'swarm of bees' idea. Their movement speed could anything from 0 to 10 miles a day - in this case, it really doesn't matter how fast they travelled.

Since the Romans had constructed a good road, Watling Street, leading northwards from London and St Albans and using the best available crossing point of the Chilterns (most probably using pre-existing trackways as well, of course), I see no reason why Boudica and her people would not use it, presuming they were going in that direction (this is a considerable assumption I know).

Unless of course they had some known aversion to using Roman roads...

I do dislike the idea that the Britons could have continued this sort of directed march for days on end, heading into the Midlands, but I do not consider that the two or three days needed to get from London to Dunstable presents any logistical difficulties. Nor would it be a 'parade' of any sort!

Since, John, you anticipate (I think) the Iceni returning to their own territory before once more mustering together and heading west to fight Paulinus (surely an attractive concept for them!), how do you consider they got there? Not a 'parade', surely? Did they just scatter in all directions, and if so why couldn't the Roman cavalry have made mincemeat of them in the process?

To the south-east of London, I reckon

Well, I did have a go, back here, but it didn't seem very plausible... We'd need some new ideas on that one, I think... :whistle:

[mcbishop]

The alternative is that the Iceni didn't elect to hobble themselves by slavishly following the indirect new fangled Roman Roads whose vertical profile and location didn't suit their Modus Operandi thereby throwing themselves into the hands of the Romans.

Which was precisely what Charles E. Stuart did in 1745, exploiting Wade and Caulfeild's superb (Roman-style) roads against the government forces, who got stuck at Hexham when attempting to intercept them. A wise commander uses every advantage available to them.

Mike Bishop

[davidscott]

Before this newest thread started today, I wanted to ask/ make three points, but I am now confused about where they may fit in. :?
1. Was the Romano British settlement at the interesection of Watling Street and The Icknield Way (centre of Dunstable) a later period than 61AD. So did the Roman settlement of D?????M shift North at some point?
2. Regarding 'the Boudiccan Horde', once reaching The Icknield Way, would the 120K psychologically not be aching to go home, turning right to the East, instead of trudging further up the A5 with their wagon train?

3. Consequently, an engagement at Dunstable makes sense because SP might have predicted this
by seeking to engage B South of this location and blocking reinforcements coming West from Iceniland?

4. Where else? Where is Tring in the current assessments?

5. Nathan. Please send a copy of the latest theory to me at '[email protected]'

[John1]

thanks for taking the bait after such a long time, I really appreciate it, very charitable.

Nathan wrote;
"If Boudica and her army, which included large numbers of carts, were at point A (London, or St Albans)"

The only Point A we know of was Colchester. London and St Albans need not have been a full horde or even a quarter horde. I doubt it was scorched earth in London and St Albans on the Roman part but maybe one could go that far to make the point.

Since the Romans had constructed a good road, Watling Street,
How good was it at the time? great in plan but a bit rubbish in terms of ups and downs for your ox cart, and particularly useless if most of you were never in London or St Albans. Relying on brand new/incomplete but securely watched enemy infrastructure surely not agood idea. Had the folkways/navigation really been abandoned 15 year into the occupation?

I see no reason why Boudica and her people would not use it
unless they were in Colchester and Thetford at the time, in which case it would be entirely irrelevant.

but I do not consider that the two or three days needed to get from London to Dunstable presents any logistical difficulties
me either, but what about 4-5 days to Mancetter? where is the break point? maybe the Nene or the Ouse from where they could float back home?

"Nor would it be a 'parade' of any sort!"
Men, women & children in the biggest festival of their day, buoyed by victory and a fair bit of wine, not to mention the freshly pillaged fancy dress. Sure the hard core wouldn't be parading but I imagine the baggage train, if it existed, was a bit of a carnival. carnival = parade? come on lets agree if it existed it was a parade... :wink:

"Did they just scatter in all directions"
I doubt that. I imagine the original units that hit Colchester were based on some kind of territorial or clan definition so returned home via their units told their dads, uncles, brothers, cousins, aunties etc of the walk over in Colchester and the fun the lads were probably having torching London and St Abans with no resistance. Then all made their way west to the rv close to where the roman force had been scouted. Most probably up the Nene and Ouse valleys as the Wash/Fens prohibited any mass move further north.

Roman cavalry have made mincemeat of them in the process
not if their heads were on sticks at Bartlow and their buddies were in full flight to Longthorpe and thence to the main roman muster somewhere up the Nene.

Dunstable remains my second preference, but on site it looked hard/impossible to guarantee the opponents couldn't take the ridge by simply moving east or west leaving any defending force in the defile in more of a trap than a secure position. Even if the romans held the pass they would have had to be able to defend it from either north or south as neither could effectively be "closed off at the rear by woods".

David I suspect the paper may answer some of your points, and others are unanswerable.

[Renatus]

So where next I wonder?

To the south-east of London, I reckon ;-)

Well, Mike, as I have remarked before, you were the one who threw the pebble into the pond four and a half years ago, so how about you expanding on this theory?