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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
Quote:I envy your certainty, but can't share it

What suggests otherwise, do you think? Considering that the theory was originally invented (probably by Haverfield) to explain how Paulinus got to London before Boudica, and we've already suggested several alternative explanations...
Nathan Ross
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This, I'm afraid, is no longer a question

I can't be so unequivocal about any of the assumptions being made about strategy and characters, there are still too many unknowns/unknowables. Each certainty rules out options we don't know about yet.
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Quote: Each certainty rules out options we don't know about yet.

Hmmm...are you having a Rumsfeld moment?
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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Quote:I can't be so unequivocal about any of the assumptions being made.

The matter of the 'cavalry dash' (or lack of it) is one of the few things I feel we can be certain about in this topic.

It's an important point too: if we accept that Paulinus had his army with him in London, the potential shape of the campaign changes considerably from the Haverfield/Webster model. If we do not, and fall back on the (unevidenced) 'dash' idea, then the battle was almost certainly in the Midlands. As you know, I prefer to follow the very convincing arguments put forward by Nick Fuentes and Steve Kaye on the subject.
Nathan Ross
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yep unknown unknowns that are probably unknowable
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I always prefer the unknown knowns myself. The things we don't know we know. :wink:
Nathan Ross
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Nathan Ross wrote:

The things we don't know we know.

We are sure that SP went to London and therefore there has to be a reason why.

It is perhaps not so obvious as we imagine, as Londinium was comparatively small at this time about half a square mile.

We do know that the Procurator was possibly based here, may be to ensure that taxation from imports / exports were collected and the commerce was suitably controlled.

This would imply that Londinium was an important port for trade and commerce as a road and sea hub for the centre of the Province (but obviously not Colchester).

Here are some possibilities:

1. To meet up with the 2nd Legion and others and advance on Colchester
2. To gain intelligence from the Procurator
3. To link up with the Fleet to get messages to Gaul / Germania after losing access to Fingringhoe to the Brythons
4. To get grain from the Granaries and replenish food supplies
5. To destroy any supplies getting into the hands of the rebels.

I think this explains why this whole exercise is so fascinating because although we know that SP went to London all the rest is a surmise that we don’t know?
Deryk
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Roman legionaries were trained to march at full pace 24 Roman miles a day (19.164 modern miles).

That does seem slow to me.
Under duress I see no reason top draw troops under pressure wouldn't be doing double that if it was between secure locations i.e. a ridge top camp near Northampton and the embryonic City of London. Maybe the 19 miles a day (significantly less than a marathon) was a good pace for a sustained advance with waggon loads of kit and camps to demolish at either end of the march. RMs require 30 miles in 8 hours with 40lb of kit, this may be a useful yard stick.

Certainly at least twice as fast as the Britons.

There's that certainty again. I'm certain there would be fast, aggressive Britons that could easily out pace that, there is no reason to slow them all to a carts pace, unless of course it's some sort of parade ;-)
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Nathan Ross / John 1

Roman legionaries were trained to march at full pace 24 Roman miles a day (19.164 modern miles).

That does seem slow to me. Maybe the 19 miles a day (significantly less than a marathon) was a good pace for a sustained advance with waggon loads of kit and camps to demolish at either end of the march. RMs require 30 miles in 8 hours with 40lb of kit, this may be a useful yard stick.


The British Army during the Falkland War “yomped” across the island to Port Stanley with full packs (80 lbs) at around 19 miles per day.

Now this may be a coincidence but it is a practical demonstration of troops marching to war fully laden as SP’s troops would have been over a number of days and being fit enough at the other end.

Certainly 20 miles per day appears to be a norm for laden troops marching to battle through the ages but there were definite exceptions when the troops carried less than the normal loads but it is unclear how long would this be sustainable for.

John 1 wrote:

I'm certain there would be fast, aggressive Britons that could easily out pace that, there is no reason to slow them all to a carts pace, unless of course it's some sort of parade


There is an interesting article regarding horses as follows:

http://bootsandsaddles4mel.blogspot.co.u...iding.html

Cavalry Endurance Riding?

In a book called “War Horse”, by Louis A. DiMarco there is this passage that comes from the American Plains Indian Wars (late 1800’s). He is describing how the cavalry travelled in order to cover 25 miles a day, 6 days a week...
..

The book goes on to describe a specific instance in 1879 where a squadron marched 170 miles in 65.5 hours.

The unit’s march speed was over 62 miles a day. “This march was particularly noteworthy because no horses were lost, no horses were injured, and the command was totally fit for service when it arrived.”

Of course this allows for a number of scenarios for both sides.

[Nathan Ross wrote:

This makes them, over long distance, faster than any other moving body of the era, including cavalry

I would then postulate that cavalry / chariots would be able to “run down” or “escape from” infantry.
Deryk
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Quote:That does seem slow to me.

That's what they were trained to do (according to Vegetius) - so it was routine, and probably left time for building a fortified camp at the end of the day.

Doubtless Roman troops could move faster - Caesar (BGVII. 40-41) has four legions marching expeditio 50 miles in 24 hours. Claudius Nero (Livy, XXVII.43-49) covered 250 miles in 7 days.

But from what Tacitus tells us of Paulinus ("a natural delayer... who preferred a cautious and well reasoned plan of operations") I don't see him pegging it down Watling Street. Keeping his troops to their regular full pace seems much more his style.



Quote:I'm certain there would be fast, aggressive Britons that could easily out pace that

Quote:I would then postulate that cavalry / chariots would be able to “run down” or “escape from” infantry.

Over short distances, yes. Long distance, and especially on roads, the legions would have the upper hand, I think. Mounted Britons might be able to harass the Romans (although the Roman cavalry would have done a good job of harassing them right back!), but I doubt they would be able to bring sufficient numbers over long distance to cause a substantial problem.



Quote:an interesting article regarding horses

It was - thanks. But we should bear in mind that these were some of the hardiest and best trained cavalry troops of their day. Would the mounted warriors of the Britons be able to match such feats? Probably not.

My point about infantry outpacing cavalry over distance comes from another U.S. source, William B. Hazen, commander of the 6th US Infantry, commenting on operations during the Plains Wars of 1878: "After the fourth day's march of a mixed command, the horse does not march faster than the foot soldier, and after the seventh day, the footsoldier begins to outmarch the horse; and from that day on the footsoldier has to end his march earlier and earlier to enable the cavalry to reach the camp..."

Although this outmarching would only count over distances of 100+ miles, and as the Romans also had cavalry with them anyway the point is moot, perhaps!
Nathan Ross
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Ay up - where did the British cavalry come from?

Mounted infantry, possibly.

Chariots - evidence given.

Cavalry...with ponies? Hmmm
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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Quote:where did the British cavalry come from?

They are mentioned by Dio, sort of (62.12): "cavalry clashed with cavalry, and against the chariots of the barbarians the Roman archers contended... Horseman would overthrow foot-soldiers and foot-soldiers strike down horseman."

I think this description might be more of a rhetorical 'battle piece' though, as it seems at odds with the account in Tacitus, written much closer to the event and possibly with eye-witness support.

There are suggestions here and there that the Iceni may have had a horsey thing going on (horses feature on their coins anyway), although whether this would be cavalry as such or mounted infantry (like those Brittunculi near Hadrian's Wall who 'dismount to throw javelins') or chariots is anyone's guess...
Nathan Ross
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Nathan Ross wrote:

There are suggestions here and there that the Iceni may have had a horsey thing going on.....


Caesar - Gallic Wars - BC54 incursion:

“They, advancing to the river with their cavalry and chariots from the higher ground, began to annoy our men and give battle. Being repulsed by our cavalry, they concealed themselves in woods, as they had secured a place admirably fortified by nature and by art, "

Caesar refers to the cavalry of the British a few times as well as chariots....... it would appear that early on his campaign the British infantry faded away completely and he was opposed only by the mounted troops....
Deryk
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she's back working for Crossrail this time;
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/...ome-ritual
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The Hughes paper (Warwick Conference Reportage) is now available on academia.edu;
www.academia.edu/12774243/On_Boudicas_trail_possible_sites_for_Boudicas_last_battle
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