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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
Quote: ... as far as I know there is no other evidence, or is there?
Try the archaeological record?
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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John wrote:

she is going to be back on Monday;
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03562h0


Mustn't let facts get in the way of a good story......

Apparently Seutonius Paulinus didn't get to London and the whole of Boudica's army was destroyed despite what the classical historians tell us.......

Also apparently there is no archeological evidence to support Boudica...... pity.....
Deryk
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Just as we were creeping up to 1000 posts the forum change bumps the thread up to 1038 posts, anyone know what the extra 40 posts are?

There seems to be a lot of Roman lead sling shot supposedly from Warwickshire on Ebay at the moment, could the nighthawks have found the battle site?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/circa-50-100-A...fresh=true
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(10-24-2015, 01:39 PM)John1 Wrote: just as we were creeping up to 1000 posts the forum change bumps the trhread up to 1038 posts, anyione know what the extra 40 posts are?

There's 15 posts per page and this is page 70, so 70 * 15 = 1050. I'm guessing the new system may have a more accurate post count than the old system? It doesn't look like 40 posts were just added at least.
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(10-24-2015, 01:39 PM)John1 Wrote: There seems to be a lot of Roman lead sling shot supposedly from Warwickshire on Ebay at the moment

Supposedly... but it looks like there's lot of other Roman small finds too, including writing implements, all from the same seller. So perhaps the plunder of some illicit digging on a fort or camp site?


(10-19-2015, 10:48 PM)Theoderic Wrote: Apparently Seutonius Paulinus didn't get to London and the whole of Boudica's army was destroyed despite what the classical historians tell us.......

And, according to Mike Loades, the Romans were at the top of a hill with woods to either side... Undecided
Nathan Ross
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Just watched it on BBC iPlayer. What a load of tosh!
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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So how bad was the episode on Boudica?
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Well.. having just watched it yesterday I wasn't impressed.

They hailed the old chariots as a battlefield innovation, instead of calling it for what it was, a leftover from earlier time in Backwater Britain. The same with the 'famous' Celtic long sword which was claimed as a superior weapon (which had me cringing and imagining the gladius thrust in the man's unpriotected side).

The claim that, had Boudicca won, British history would have been totally different was I think totally unfounded. My guess would be that another Roman emperor would have needed to rub out that defeat and make another attempt later.
In the middle of the Boudicca narrative they jumped to Ireland, visiting the bog bodies and the claim that these are all mudered kings. I thought that claim had been refuted?
And at the end they suggested that the British uprising was linked to Paulinus' campaign in Mona against the druids. But if so, why did not all tribes rise in revolt? To me the extent of the tribes involved rather point to the most powerful tribes before the Roman invasion, who were still smarting from their loss of power. No Southern tribe joined the rebellion.

Some bad details and left out information: the 'soldiers' fighting in camelodunum (which they claimed was a name chosen by the Romans) should have been unarmoured veterans, the final fate of the defenders was unmentioned (like the fate of those at Alesia the week before). Etc.

Oh, and the reenactors involved were a sad lot.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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Hmm sounds like typical BBC pap by so called academics. Not surprised.
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Smile 
(11-05-2015, 09:41 AM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: They hailed the old chariots as a battlefield innovation

Yes, I was amused by that as well!



(11-05-2015, 09:41 AM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: they suggested that the British uprising was linked to Paulinus' campaign in Mona against the druids.

Which is an old idea, I think, that still remains popular. But druidism had been suppressed by Rome for a very long time, and the Iceni (Roman allies until recently) clearly didn't have a problem with that. So it was probably coincidence - and Tacitus's desire to add some dramatic scary druid action to his account...

Conceivably some among the Britons may have feared that, with the fall of Mona, the Roman army would be pulled back from the western frontier, where it had been operating for years, and would be more available for the quick suppression of tribal uprisings closer to home... Although the lack of any large-scale Roman military presence in the south-east for several centuries after the revolt suggests that these considerations might have been limited.
Nathan Ross
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I enjoyed it.... it helped bridge between the Horrible Histories version to Key Stage 2 History...Iron Age this half term - bargain.
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Nathan Ross wrote:

But druidism had been suppressed by Rome for a very long time, and the Iceni (Roman allies until recently) clearly didn't have a problem with that. So it was probably coincidence - and Tacitus's desire to add some dramatic scary druid action to his account... 

I think that the Druids had a far greater influence than people think, otherwise why bother to attack Mona in the first place? Yes it was a place that was the "breadbasket" for many but Caesar only 100 years previously stated the huge influence that the Druids had throughout Gallic (and Brythonic) society and that "Britannia" was a stronghold for the teaching of these practices.

The Iceni aristocracy (as well as many other aristocrats in other tribes) took on Roman habits when it suited them but I am not convinced that percolated down throughout the general population who possibly retained their laws based on Druidical laws centuries old.

In fact Roman law was applied to the occupants of the cities only in provinces, or client kings but not to the general population who had no rights whatsoever at this time.   

It is also true that the tribes did work together against Roman invaders and in the case of Caratacus he and his followers worked closely with the Silures, the Ordovices and other tribes against the Romans for many years.

This does not mean to say that they were not rivals at other times and would look out for their own interests which is probably why the Cantiaci and Atrebates did not rise up with Boudica whereas the Trinovantes and other tribes (Tacitus) did.
 


  

    
Deryk
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(11-07-2015, 07:22 PM)Theoderic Wrote: I think that the Druids had a far greater influence than people think, otherwise why bother to attack Mona in the first place?
 
    

They may have done, but nothing in our sources for the 1st C AD suggests that they did.

In both Agricola and Annals Tactius says that Paulinus attacked Mona because it was a refuge for his enemies, a point of supply and a potential hazard on his flank: he needed to conquer it if he wanted to complete his subjegation of the local population. The druids are only mentioned as part of that population once the attack is underway.

The account of the Iceni uprising follows directly, in Annals, from the section about the destruction of the druids, but Tacitus draws no connection between the events. Would he not have mentioned, either in his summary of Iceni grievances or the speech he gives to Boudica, if there was some druidic or religious aspect to the revolt?

Cassius Dio does not mention druids at all, nor does he suggest in the longer speech he gives to Boudica that there was a religious element to the uprising. In fact, Boudica herself performs religious rites, and the Iceni sacrifice their own prisoners in a grove.
Nathan Ross
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Nathan Ross wrote:

The account of the Iceni uprising follows directly, in Annals, from the section about the destruction of the druids, but Tacitus draws no connection between the events. Would he not have mentioned, either in his summary of Iceni grievances or the speech he gives to Boudica, if there was some druidic or religious aspect to the revolt?

Tacitus does make a large play on the Druids regarding the invasion of Mona and also the destruction of the peoples and their religious places on Mona - annihilation would probably be more apt. 

I think that it is wrong to think of the Druids only as a religious sect. It would seem from Caesar's writings that Druidism was a way of life with a structure and order as the administrators of both Gallic and Brythonic society based on a common legal system that all the tribes were able to follow.

Britannia was acknowledged as a place where people were taught by the Druids.

So I do agree with what Tacitus states as a reason for attack (although the threat on the flank is definitely "potential" rather than threatening as the Northern tribes had already been subdued some time before) but stamping out Druidism was essential to the Roman cause.

Caesar when writing of his battles of the Gallic War does not mention that he is fighting Druidism either or that there were any links but of course in fact he was fighting to supplant the "old religons" with Roman standards, religions and laws.

There is no reason to think that Boudica was not a Druidic Leader herself and the reference you make implies this.

Being allied to Rome as a Client Kingdom probably allowed you to continue your old religion but be on the same side politically as the Romans.    

There is a link with religion in the uprising, not from an Iceni point of view but from the view of the Trinovantes. At Colchester the Temple of Claudius was being built and being built no doubt by local slave labour but also by huge contributions from the local aristocracy. This is mentioned by Tacitus as a major reason for disatisfaction by the Brythons amongst others.

Communication between tribes was effective and also co-operation as well, against an external force, where mutually beneficial for the impacted tribes. Organised tribal resistance happened - as Caesar found out in his second incursion when his ships were attacked on the coast by the Kent kings on the orders of Cassivelaunus who was harassing Caesar and his army, more than 100 miles away.

 


      
Deryk
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Quote:So I do agree with what Tacitus states as a reason for attack (although the threat on the flank is definitely "potential" rather than threatening as the Northern tribes had already been subdued some time before) but stamping out Druidism was essential to the Roman cause.

I agree that the remaining druids were a valid target for the Romans to attack. However i do not see that as a reason for the Iceni to rise on revolt. The coincidence, if any, would rather be that most of the Roman troops would be tied in battle on the opposite side of the Island.

Quote:There is no reason to think that Boudica was not a Druidic Leader herself and the reference you make implies this.
Sorry but there is no evidence whatsoever. The Iceni, having been occupied quite some time, would not have seen any druidic influence for a long time. To address Boudicca as a 'druidic leader' is pure speculation without foundation. A speech dreamed up by Tacitus does not change that.

Quote:Communication between tribes was effective and also co-operation as well, against an external force, where mutually beneficial for the impacted tribes. 

Based on?
And why did none of the other British tribes join the rebellion? If, as you claim, druidism was still influential and all the tribes would have been impacted?

   
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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