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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
Robert Vermaat wrote:


I agree that the remaining druids were a valid target for the Romans to attack. However i do not see that as a reason for the Iceni to rise on revolt. The coincidence, if any, would rather be that most of the Roman troops would be tied in battle on the opposite side of the Island.

Sorry Robert you misunderstand me. The Iceni rose in revolt because they had just been taken over as a Roman Province rather than being a Client Kingdom and had all their land and possessions subsumed into the Roman Empire.

The timing of the uprising to match the Governor fighting 200 miles away was too much of a co-incidence not to have been planned.   

Robert Vermaat wrote:

Sorry but there is no evidence whatsoever. The Iceni, having been occupied quite some time, would not have seen any druidic influence for a long time. To address Boudicca as a 'druidic leader' is pure speculation without foundation. A speech dreamed up by Tacitus does not change that.

From the texts, until one year previously the Iceni were not occupied but were a Client Kingdom running their own affairs. The Romans had only been occupying Britannia for 18 years and had established two towns, Colchester and St Albans and London was a successful and growing trading centre for Rome.

If we are going to accept Tacitus as a valid source I think that you have to accept his references to Boudica as a Queen of the Iceni and as person who performed a divination ceremony prior to the battle and as such may have been a priestess of some religion. It is interpretation but that doesn't make it any less valid than your opinon.

Nathan Ross wrote:

There's also the problem that virtually all we know about druids comes from Caesar, who was writing a century earlier and seemingly at second hand (he never mentions meeting a druid, despite all the years he spent in Gaul!) His idea of a widespread druidic system of religion and law may have been anachronistic even then.

Roman writers certainly knew of druids. There's a least the possibility that Tacitus just used a familiar-sounding word to describe whatever sort of native British priests Paulinus's men encountered on Mona. 

The rites performed by Boudica (at least in Dio's account) may indicate that Iceni royalty had a duty, which would suggest that a separate druidic priestly caste was not a feature of their society.

I cannot disprove your argument but Caesar's in depth description of the Druids and their influence and that their knowledge was taught in Britannia does seem to indicate that he did have an understanding of his enemy and their laws and religion. He certainly is of the impression that the Brythons were guided by the same hands.

Of course you don't have to have met someone of a different religion or who lives by a different set of laws to understand their way of living.  

The Romans themselves would also look for sacrificial augeries before battle so perhaps Tacitus was taking that as his example but I am not convinced.
   
Robert Vermaat wrote in reply to Theoderic's statement: "Communication between tribes was effective and also co-operation as well, against an external force, where mutually beneficial for the impacted tribes." 

Based on? And why did none of the other British tribes join the rebellion? If, as you claim, druidism was still influential and all the tribes would have been impacted?

You need to go back to the earlier invasions of the Brythons by Juliius Caesar to see the co-operation of the tribes against Caesar and also their change of heart once it looked like Cassivellaunus was about to be beaten. 

Also of the alliance between the Kings of Kent and Cassivellaunus against Caesar,where Cassivellaunus came to the aid of the Cantiaci which was reciprocated by the Cantiaci later in the campagn. This was in 54 BC a century before the uprising of the Iceni.

Also Tacitus writes "they (the Iceni) flew to arms and incited the Trinovantes and others who not yet broken by servitude had entered into a secret and treasonable compact to resume their independance".

My guess (as it is an interpretation) is that by AD55 the Cantiaci had been subjugated as had the Regnenses and were part of the Province, the Trinovantes were part of the Province, having been a previous Cliient Kingdom, the Catuvellauni were part of the Province,  the Belgae, the Durotriges and the Dobunni were part of the Province, as were Cornovii and the Coritani. (as per your interpretation), the Atrebates were a Client Kingdom, the Brigantes were a Client Kingdom and the Iceni were a Client Kiingdom.   

The Western tribes were still unconquered although contained.

By early / mid AD61 the above still held but the Dumnonii, the Silures, the Demetae, the Ordovices and the inhabitants of Mona had been conquered and were heavily garrisoned.

Probably the original rebellion was by the Iceni and the Trinovantes (Client Kingdoms absorbed into the Empire) but after the sacking of Colchester the Catuvellauni (also possible Client Kingdom absorbed into the Empire) the conquered Dobunni, and perhaps the Cornovii also seized their chance to take back their lands but there could have been uprisings elsewhere in the south west and north. The Atrebates and the Brigantes remained true to Rome.

One thing is for sure the two pieces of documented evidence we have indicates a huge force of people (much bigger than one or two tribes) fighting a much smaller Roman force and being beaten by superior generalship but surviving as a body to continue the war for a few more months until a "cease fire" was put in place.  
  




 
Deryk
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Messages In This Thread
Re: Calling all armchair generals! - by Ensifer - 03-11-2010, 03:13 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 02-18-2012, 06:26 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 02-19-2012, 12:02 AM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 02-19-2012, 02:50 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 02-19-2012, 05:40 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 02-19-2012, 11:26 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-24-2012, 05:11 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-24-2012, 09:42 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-24-2012, 10:10 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-25-2012, 03:11 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-25-2012, 03:25 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-25-2012, 08:36 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-26-2012, 02:57 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 04-27-2012, 01:50 PM
Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by Steve Kaye - 08-05-2012, 02:24 PM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-07-2014, 02:18 PM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-08-2014, 01:50 AM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-11-2014, 02:03 AM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-18-2014, 07:54 AM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-20-2014, 02:37 AM
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - by antiochus - 11-25-2014, 08:29 AM
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - by Theoderic - 11-10-2015, 07:55 PM

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