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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
(12-13-2017, 03:14 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(12-13-2017, 12:46 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: I've still no clear idea where it was or the orientation.

This is what I believe to be the relation between my suggested site (Tring/Newground - in red, with an alternative position in orange) and Deryk's (in blue):



The 'defile' in Deryk's position is far more pronounced, but I hope the plan demonstrates my objection to it as well - the apparent ease with which the Britons approaching from the Bulbourne Valley could move across the high ground - perhaps following the Ridgeway - and attack from behind the Roman position.
OK, I've updated them with some grid references & latitude longitude.

I've also renamed to
Tring-WestLeith
Tring-Newground
Oh the grand oh Duke Suetonius, he had a Roman legion, he galloped rushed down to (a minor settlement called) Londinium then he galloped rushed back again. Londinium Bridge is falling down, falling down ... HOLD IT ... change of plans, we're leaving the bridge for Boudica and galloping rushing north.
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(12-13-2017, 12:46 AM)Theoderic Wrote: As we have agreed SP was a brilliant but cautious / thoughtful General and would have had his scouts deployed around his location and it may well have been that he had knowledge of attackers advancing on his position... As he had come down Watling Street the stores in those forts would have been low as he would have used them already.

I still go with the idea that Paulinus diverted off Watling Street on his march south and aimed to meet up with Cerealis, in order to combine their forces against a rebellion believed at that time to be in East Anglia. Only on his arrival at somewhere like Godmanchester did he realise that Carealis had rushed on ahead and come to grief, so he once more diverted his march down to London. So the supplies at forts and towns south of Mancetter or thereabouts would be fine.

However, we seem in agreement on the St Albans stage of things. My guess would be that from that point things might have gone as follows:

1. As the rebels approach St Albans from the south, Paulinus pulls back along Akeman Street, aiming to meet up with his reinforcements from the western garrisons.

2. Arriving at Tring, he meets the veterans detachment of the 20th, and, hearing that the rebels are following him from St Albans, sends out scouts to pick a defensive site in the vicinity.

3. At this stage I would imagine he would pick Newground as a place to confront the advancing rebels directly. It seems to meet most of the requirements of a defensive position with attack capabilities, not so enclosed as to limit manoeuvre if necessary.

4. However, if he did not pick Newground, he may have decided instead to use the V-shaped valley below Chivery Top - perhaps he thought there might be another rebel force to the north, or that rebels might be approaching along the Iknield Way? These are unknowns. But he would need some good reason for tucking himself away in such a tight spot, I think.

5. If he was using the valley below Chivery, I suppose he could wait until the rebels had already passed Newground and swung west before moving back into the defile and deploying his men there - this would slightly resolve the problem of the Britons being able to surround him from the high ground... although there is still that parallel valley on the eastern side of the Hastoe ridge...
Nathan Ross
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(12-13-2017, 07:52 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(12-13-2017, 12:46 AM)Theoderic Wrote: As we have agreed SP was a brilliant but cautious / thoughtful General and would have had his scouts deployed around his location and it may well have been that he had knowledge of attackers advancing on his position... As he had come down Watling Street the stores in those forts would have been low as he would have used them already.

I still go with the idea that Paulinus diverted off Watling Street on his march south and aimed to meet up with Cerealis, in order to combine their forces against a rebellion believed at that time to be in East Anglia. Only on his arrival at somewhere like Godmanchester did he realise that Carealis had rushed on ahead and come to grief, so he once more diverted his march down to London. So the supplies at forts and towns south of Mancetter or thereabouts would be fine.

I've finally worked out one of the big reasons why I'm coming to such very different conclusion on the site - it's all a question of timescale - mine are a lot longer. I'm not sure how I've come to that thinking so please don't challenge me to explain it, but as a result I don't think I can sensibly comment much on the proposed troop movements as any comments I make would totally confuse the discussion. But as the battle is basically the same and in the same timescale I'm still interested in the sites that are being suggested.
Oh the grand oh Duke Suetonius, he had a Roman legion, he galloped rushed down to (a minor settlement called) Londinium then he galloped rushed back again. Londinium Bridge is falling down, falling down ... HOLD IT ... change of plans, we're leaving the bridge for Boudica and galloping rushing north.
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(12-13-2017, 10:01 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: it's all a question of timescale - mine are a lot longer.

I think any detailed study of the sources will reveal that the timescale for the campaign is fairly constricted.

The revolt began some time following the planting season - this will either be spring planting (some time March-April) or autumn (Sept-Oct).

By the time it broke out, Paulinus was already campaigning in Anglesey - the Roman campaign season began in early summer (probably May). Dio says he had already 'brought the island to terms' by the time he heard of the revolt.

As soon as he learned of the revolt, Paulinus marched to London 'with wonderful steadfastness', arriving before the rebels. This would have taken him 11-12 days, so this is still early summer, May-June. In the meantime, the Iceni sack Colchester and defeat Cerealis.

Once reinforcements arrived from the Rhine, Paulinus sent them into winter camp. This indicates that the main phase of the campaign was over by the autumn.

Also, if more than 10-20 days elapsed between Paulinus evacuating London and the last battle, reinforcements from North Wales would have had time to join him, and his force would have numbered far more then 10K.

Considering all this, the fighting phrase of the campaign, between Paulinus leaving Anglesey and the final battle, could only have lasted a few weeks to a month at most, allowing for several 'delays' after P left London. The 'mopping up' stage appears to have lasted for several months though - this would also allow time for Polyclitus and his retinue to travel from Rome to Britain, assess the situation, return to Rome to make a report before the end of the year.

A longer timescale would either involve ignoring certain details in the sources, or stretching the whole revolt out over two years.
Nathan Ross
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Renatus wrote:

The fear of ambush point seems to be relevant to the open plain. I read this to indicate that Paulinus  wanted to be sure that, when he left the protection of the defile, he would not be attacked by enemies emerging unexpectedly from cover. The open plain allowed he to see the whole of the enemy force and to make his dispositions accordingly.

I hadn't looked at it quite that way but it is certainly a valid option.

Nathan wrote:
 My guess would be that from that point things might have gone as follows:

1. As the rebels approach St Albans from the south, Paulinus pulls back along Akeman Street, aiming to meet up with his reinforcements from the western garrisons.
2. Arriving at Tring, he meets the veterans detachment of the 20th, and, hearing that the rebels are following him from St Albans, sends out scouts to pick a defensive site in the vicinity.
3. At this stage I would imagine he would pick Newground as a place to confront the advancing rebels directly. It seems to meet most of the requirements of a defensive position with attack capabilities, not so enclosed as to limit manoeuvre if necessary.
4. However, if he did not pick Newground, he may have decided instead to use the V-shaped valley below Chivery Top - perhaps he thought there might be another rebel force to the north, or that rebels might be approaching along the Iknield Way? These are unknowns. But he would need some good reason for tucking himself away in such a tight spot, I think.
5. If he was using the valley below Chivery, I suppose he could wait until the rebels had already passed Newground and swung west before moving back into the defile and deploying his men there - this would slightly resolve the problem of the Britons being able to surround him from the high ground... although there is still that parallel valley on the eastern side of the Hastoe ridge...

I think that yours is a good summation and I can understand your reservations regarding the access to the rear but in many other aspects this site "fits the bill".

I will try to show that this is difficult to access later.

Interestingly Aston Clinton (Tring) is about halfway between St  Albans  and Alchester using the Roman Road network - shouldn't there be a fort around here on this military highway?
Deryk
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(12-13-2017, 11:55 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(12-13-2017, 10:01 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: it's all a question of timescale - mine are a lot longer.

I think any detailed study of the sources will reveal that the timescale for the campaign is fairly constricted.

The revolt began some time following the planting season - this will either be spring planting (some time March-April) or autumn (Sept-Oct).

Once reinforcements arrived from the Rhine, Paulinus sent them into winter camp. This indicates that the main phase of the campaign was over by the autumn.

So one campaigning season.

Your time scale looks a bit like this to me

Distance D-Day landings to Berlin 1500km
Tanks can easily travel  30km/h, which is 240km in an 8 hour day.
But they were "travelling with haste" so assume 300km
So the allies must have been in Berlin in 5 days ...

or to use another example
Distance Earth to Mars is 55million km
Assume space craft can travel at 6km/s
Time = 100days
Trump announced the US were going to Mars on 1st December,
the landing on Mars must have been sometime in March the following year.
Oh the grand oh Duke Suetonius, he had a Roman legion, he galloped rushed down to (a minor settlement called) Londinium then he galloped rushed back again. Londinium Bridge is falling down, falling down ... HOLD IT ... change of plans, we're leaving the bridge for Boudica and galloping rushing north.
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(12-14-2017, 08:02 AM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Your time scale looks a bit like this

I would urge you to look at the sources again.

While marching Romans and British carts have certain average and maximum probable speeds etc, the timescale for the revolt is determined by the need to fit a number of events within the period between late spring and autumn.

Allowing for travel between known points, the movement of messages to and from Rome and reinforcements from the Rhine, and Turpilianus replacing Paulinus as governor in late 61 or 62, that does not leave much time for wandering about the landscape.

You say you don't know how you've come up with a longer timescale - fine, you can think what you like! - but perhaps you could explain why you think the shorter one is improbable?
Nathan Ross
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(12-14-2017, 12:13 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(12-14-2017, 08:02 AM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Your time scale looks a bit like this

I would urge you to look at the sources again.

While marching Romans and British carts have certain average and maximum probable speeds etc, the timescale for the revolt is determined by the need to fit a number of events within the period between late spring and autumn.

Allowing for travel between known points, the movement of messages to and from Rome and reinforcements from the Rhine, and Turpilianus replacing Paulinus as governor in late 61 or 62, that does not leave much time for wandering about the landscape.

You say you don't know how you've come up with a longer timescale - fine, you can think what you like! - but perhaps you could explain why you think the shorter one is improbable?

I'm not saying the shorter timescale is improbable, I am merely saying that if you have a different concept of how fast armies move, then you will come to very different conclusions about constraints. You have troops galloping up and down Watling Street, I have troops capable of building an entirely new road if needed, the constraints are very different. That doesn't mean they wouldn't dash down the road and enter into battle - that is an effective strategy that many have used after all.

The best analogy is that I'm playing chess, and just as in chess, a single bold move can be decisive and win the game. And in a sense, all battles are won by people "charging up and down" so you are always right in a sense that battles are won by the final charge. However, the limitation of chess is usually not how long or far the next piece can move, but a series of moves and counter moves where you are trying to get into a strategically strong position.

At any point, a single move could win the game and the game is won in the end by a single decisive move. But I don't have the details to know the individual moves, so I can't think of it in terms of daily movements, just strategy. In contrast, you have a quick dash and that dramatically changes the way you can view the situation such that you can think about it in terms of individual moves.
Oh the grand oh Duke Suetonius, he had a Roman legion, he galloped rushed down to (a minor settlement called) Londinium then he galloped rushed back again. Londinium Bridge is falling down, falling down ... HOLD IT ... change of plans, we're leaving the bridge for Boudica and galloping rushing north.
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Nathan wrote:

Allowing for travel between known points, the movement of messages to and from Rome and reinforcements from the Rhine, and Turpilianus replacing Paulinus as governor in late 61 or 62, that does not leave much time for wandering about the landscape.

Good point - well made.
Deryk
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(12-14-2017, 01:22 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: You have troops galloping up and down Watling Street

Certainly not. I would suggest that no galloping took place...

We have Paulinus beginning the campaign in Anglesey, and Boudica in Colchester. He gets to London before her - how? (it was an attempt to answer this question that led to the creation of the 'cavalry dash' idea by Professor F Haverfield in c.1913)

So Paulinus needs to get to London (probably at a speed of c.20 miles per day by road: Roman standard, following Vegetius - no galloping required), and then leave London again, before Boudica gets there. That's time constraint 1.

Once he's done so, the final battle needs to be concluded with enough of the summer remaining for messages and orders to pass between Britain, Rome and the Rhine, reinforcements to come from the Rhine and an imperial investigation mission to travel from Rome to Britain and back. All before the end of the sailing season in the autumn. That's time constraint 2. And Paulinus has to fight his battle before reinforcements from North Wales could reach his new position too.

Try working out the movement times and distances and you'll see that the active campaigning period has to be very brief, if we are to make sense of the sources, which simply do not allow for anything longer than that.

But perhaps if you could give us some idea of the timespan you have in mind it might help the discussion?
Nathan Ross
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(12-18-2017, 01:37 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(12-14-2017, 01:22 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: You have troops galloping up and down Watling Street

Try working out the movement times and distances and you'll see that the active campaigning period has to be very brief, if we are to make sense of the sources, which simply do not allow for anything longer than that.

And Boudica simply went down to the army and navy store to buy enough wagons, tents and portable camp supplies to equip her army and set off that afternoon without anyone having a clue who was going to look after the fields and the animals and do all the work that normally has to be done in an iron-age society.

And of course all boudica needed to do was post a message on her local "IceniArmyTalk" forum and every able person from across the Iceni tribal area would be ready and willing to immediately leave. ... I know they probably had thousands of homing pigeons all ready and trained to leave with the messages to all the hamlets ... but I may be a bit hazy on iron-age communications networks, but I suspect they were slightly slower than our modern systems.

And I know there are people who can wake up in the morning and think "I fancy flying to Iceland today to spend a week pillaging", but the rest of us need a bit of time to plan & organise our pillaging excursions. Indeed, it might be helpful to talk to local Icelanders to find out whether your planned pillaging would be acceptable to them. So, at the very least, Boudica might want to tell your neighbouring tribes that the massed hoards moving in their direction aren't organising a mass raid on them. That would avoid them mistakenly siding with the Romans and you never know, they might even want to help the Iceni if asked politely.

Likewise Paulinus, could just set off and take supplies from the local tribes as needed. It might however be prudent for him to try to keep as many of the other tribes from siding with Boudica, or at least not openly giving support. He therefore needs to be as diplomatic as possible - using both the threat of violence and the lure of Roman gold to try to prevent support of Boudica growing. That doesn't make it easy moving 1000s of hungry troops, looking for a bit of native "entertainment" wherever they can around the country.

Or the easy way would be to just ignore all the planning, logistics, diplomacy that goes with a campaign and just gallop down Watling street and engage Boudica in a show of Roman superiority and dominance like Cerialis.
Oh the grand oh Duke Suetonius, he had a Roman legion, he galloped rushed down to (a minor settlement called) Londinium then he galloped rushed back again. Londinium Bridge is falling down, falling down ... HOLD IT ... change of plans, we're leaving the bridge for Boudica and galloping rushing north.
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(12-18-2017, 09:18 AM)MonsGraupius Wrote: And Boudica simply went down to the army and navy store to buy enough wagons, tents and portable camp supplies to equip her army and set off that afternoon without anyone having a clue who was going to look after the fields and the animals and do all the work that normally has to be done in an iron-age society.

And of course all boudica needed to do was post a message on her local "IceniArmyTalk" forum and every able person from across the Iceni tribal area would be ready and willing to immediately leave. ... I know they probably had thousands of homing pigeons all ready and trained to leave with the messages to all the hamlets ... but I may be a bit hazy on iron-age communications networks, but I suspect they were slightly slower than our modern systems.

And I know there are people who can wake up in the morning and think "I fancy flying to Iceland today to spend a week pillaging", but the rest of us need a bit of time to plan & organise our pillaging excursions. Indeed, it might be helpful to talk to local Icelanders to find out whether your planned pillaging would be acceptable to them. So, at the very least, Boudica might want to tell your neighbouring tribes that the massed hoards moving in their direction aren't organising a mass raid on them. That would avoid them mistakenly siding with the Romans and you never know, they might even want to help the Iceni if asked politely.

Likewise Paulinus, could just set off and take supplies from the local tribes as needed. It might however be prudent for him to try to keep as many of the other tribes from siding with Boudica, or at least not openly giving support. He therefore needs to be as diplomatic as possible - using both the threat of violence and the lure of Roman gold to try to prevent support of Boudica growing. That doesn't make it easy moving 1000s of hungry troops, looking for a bit of native "entertainment" wherever they can around the country.

Or the easy way would be to just ignore all the planning, logistics, diplomacy that goes with a campaign and just gallop down Watling street and engage Boudica in a show of Roman superiority and dominance like Cerialis.

If this is the level of debate that this thread has descended to, we might as well all give up now.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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(12-18-2017, 10:04 AM)Renatus Wrote:
(12-18-2017, 09:18 AM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Or the easy way would be to just ignore all the planning, logistics, diplomacy that goes with a campaign and just gallop down Watling street and engage Boudica in a show of Roman superiority and dominance like Cerialis.

If this is the level of debate that this thread has descended to, we might as well all give up now.

I'm not debating. I'm not trying to persuade anyone to my view nor win an argument. I was very happily keeping my views to myself - contributing where I was able - but eventually I thought I ought to explain that  I couldn't partake in the discussion about the location because it doesn't make any sense to me.

I have my views, I have attempted to explain them courteously when asked - clearly without success - which I understand. I also understand why others have different views, and I've made it clear that they could be right.

And forgive me if I'm getting fed up. But I'm getting a lot of hassle merely for saying that because my interpretation leads to different constraints I can't contribute to the debate on locations and that shouldn't be taken as any kind of insult.
Oh the grand oh Duke Suetonius, he had a Roman legion, he galloped rushed down to (a minor settlement called) Londinium then he galloped rushed back again. Londinium Bridge is falling down, falling down ... HOLD IT ... change of plans, we're leaving the bridge for Boudica and galloping rushing north.
Reply
(12-18-2017, 10:04 AM)Renatus Wrote:
(12-18-2017, 09:18 AM)MonsGraupius. Wrote: And Boudica simply went down to the army and navy store to buy enough wagons, tents and portable camp supplies 

If this is the level of debate that this thread has descended to, we might as well all give up now.

With respect, Renatus, I don't altogether agree.  (Perhaps it's a matter of lightening up a bit).  It seems to me to be OK, from time to time, as long as the thread is not lost for too long.  

Firstly, around the solstice is a bit of a silly season.

Secondly, more importantly, sometimes a real lateral idea comes from it. As a feeble example,  I began to wonder whether the pigeon post was available to SP, who was operating at longer distances. But because they did not seem to have a written language, probably not the Iceni?

Addendum. Frontinus said that Julius Caesar used pigeons as messengers in his conquest of Gaul
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(12-18-2017, 10:44 AM)David Scothorn Wrote: Secondly, more importantly, sometimes a real lateral idea comes from it. As a feeble example,  I began to wonder whether the pigeon post really was around in 61 AD  and available to SP, who was operating at longer distances. But because they did not seem to have a written language, probably not the Iceni?

I have to admit, I couldn't remember whether the pigeon was a native bird or whether it might be the Dove. So I just wanted to make it clear, that I wasn't in anyway suggesting that there weren't Doves, nor that the pigeon must have been used if the Dove was the Native species. Nor am I against any other potential "Ipad" communication system like homing hairs.
Oh the grand oh Duke Suetonius, he had a Roman legion, he galloped rushed down to (a minor settlement called) Londinium then he galloped rushed back again. Londinium Bridge is falling down, falling down ... HOLD IT ... change of plans, we're leaving the bridge for Boudica and galloping rushing north.
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